H380 Bent rudder and Smile

[skenn]

I've looked at a few H380's and recently thought I'd found THE one. Survey was done yesterday and although a few things came up during the sea trial there wasn't anything I couldn't fix. Once out of the water though that was a different story. There's a definite 'smile' on the aft end of the hull/keel joint and the rudder appears to be bent aft a few degrees. If you zoom in on the pic, the offset in the horizontal angle of the collar around the rudder post seem to match the angle between the hull and top of the blade. The owner doesn't have any pictures of previous dry dockings showing the rudder so there's no way to tell how long it's been this way. The broker made light of it saying the 'smile is delt with my torquing the keel bolts and the rudder has probably always been this way. (I doubt both)
Question is, do 380 owners out there have experience repairing the smile, or do you have any similar pictures of your rudders so I can compare if this is in fact normal? Bolts appear clean with no corrosion and the rudder works freely with no grinding or rough sounds.

Current owner has only had the boat 2 years and just returned from and extensive Bahamas cruise.

Any past experiences or input would be appreciated. Purchase is on hold till I get the full report from the surveyor and do more research about these issues.

Thanks
SK

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

Bahamas + bent rudder shaft + keel separation = grounding.

Should be evidence on bottom or leading edge of keel if true.

 

[Ralph Johnstone]

That's not much of a smile, more of a crack from a good grounding.

The broker made light of it saying the 'smile is delt with my torquing the keel bolts

Be sure to count your fingers after shaking hands with the broker. This is how much damage from the grounding that you CAN see. What CAN'T you see from this impact ?

 

[marcham]

If it's like mine, it's just the polyester fairing that cracked between the lead keel and the fiberglass stub. Every single one i lookedmat had that (or had it repaired). fairing compound is quite thick. Corrosion of the lead would not be a big issue from this minor displacement. Does it open up in the slings? If not, put it on the hard, retorque the keelbolts (250 ft lbs for lubricated threads) , grind down the fairing and either repair with polyester fairing or thickened epoxy. Mars metals in Ontario can provide the instructions.note, you'll need a special 8 to 10 in long socket (1 1/2 in diam) to torque the bolts and about 30 inch extension for the torque wrench.

As for the rudder, that's not normal. Hard to tell what the issue is without dropping it. A new rudder should be available through Foss Foam. How's the bottom leading edge of the rudder? If the boat is in Florida, replacement would not be very expensive.

Also inspect the top of the rudder tube block... need to remove the aft cockpit floor pan for this.

For sure has a bent rudder stock or displaced tube.

Nothing serious is evident from those photos. Has your surveyor inspected the grid (and inside of it with an inspection camera? That would be necessary to determine if there are more serious underlying issues. Remove all the floorboards....

So long as the grid and rudder tube are intact, it's all easily remedied.

If it's otherwise the right boat in the right place, I 'd drop the offer price and have the owner remedy to your satisfaction... they might be able to go through their insurance.

If they object, walk away... you'll likely then see it advertised for $20k less as now they know about the defects...

Great family cruiser, easy to work on, well designed, good quality woodwork. The only disadvantage of this model is a relatively small fuel and water capacity for a boat this size, but you gain a huge living space for the length. You'll need an asymetrical for downwind sailing. It's 25 years old. Have sails, windlass, refrigeration, water pumps, autopilot, instruments been replaced? If not, the price should reflect the $40 000 refit that is forthcoming.

 

[skenn]

Thanks, that's exactly the information I was looking for. Sounded like the smile could be repaired but many unknowns with the rudder. Current owner is a very nice guy but didn't offer any explanation on to how came to be like this. Said he's had the boat less than 2 years and didn't have a survey when he purchased.
Nice to see the rudder replacements are available. I removed the small panel behind the bunk in the aft cabin but couldn't see much of the tube the rudder shaft is housed in.

Other items of note during the survey was the Selden furling main wouldn't come out more than 70%, tried in and out several times but no go, leech seemed stuck in the slot. Just bad stowing when rolled up or something wrong with the foil I couldn't tell.

The PSS dripless shaft seal looks to be at the end of it's life, I'm assuming that's a dry dock item,, (?)

Appreciate your input if you happen to have those systems on your boat as well.

Thanks again,
SK

 

[marcham]

FYI, if the mainsail furling gear is damaged, that is a very very expensive repair, could be 10000 or more depending on the issue. It's possible that the sail was not furled correctly.... get a rigger to inspect that if the rest still makes sense before finalizing....

Pss replacement is just a couple $100 once you are hauled out IF the coupler is not corroded and easy to remove. It should be serviced every 6 to 8 years. Bilge should be dry with a pss fitted.

PM me if you would like me to review the survey....

 

[Davidasailor26]

Other items of note during the survey was the Selden furling main wouldn't come out more than 70%, tried in and out several times but no go, leech seemed stuck in the slot. Just bad stowing when rolled up or something wrong with the foil I couldn't tell.

Could be anything from a simple fix like furling technique to a more expensive issue like fouled furling gear as Jim suggested or an old blown out sail.

 

[colemj]

A new rudder should be available through Foss Foam. How's the bottom leading edge of the rudder? If the boat is in Florida, replacement would not be very expensive.

Expense is relative, but I do know a replacement rudder from Foss in Florida will be a minimum of $3,000 if they have the mold for it, and an additional $1,000 if they need to make a mold. I don't know whether this is inexpensive in context of the value of the boat.

Mark

 

[dmax]

You may be able to have the bent rudder shaft straightened - I had one with a good size bend in it straightened perfectly.

 

[JamesG161]

Check out this thread.

Hunter smile / keel movement

Jim...

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

Thanks, that's exactly the information I was looking for. Sounded like the smile could be repaired but many unknowns with the rudder. Current owner is a very nice guy but didn't offer any explanation on to how came to be like this. Said he's had the boat less than 2 years and didn't have a survey when he purchased.
Nice to see the rudder replacements are available.

that sounds too ”cute”.
First, no one can reliably tell the extent of a keel issue from a picture.
Second, the PO can’t possibly NOT know about either the keel or the rudder post issues
Third, I wouldn’t trust anyone’s judgment or integrity when the PO claims he didn’t have a pre-purchase survey done.
Last, Foss Foam rudders of that size typically cost around $6000 for replacement.

 

[Terry Cox]

Sounded like the smile could be repaired but many unknowns with the rudder.

Rudder post appears to be bent, according to your picture. A certified marine surveyor can tell you whether it can be repaired and approximate cost. As far as the keel smile goes, the right way to repair it requires that the keel be dropped, fair both surfaces, re-bed with 3M 5200 or equivalent, torque keel bolts. Have a marine repair tech determine whether the keel threads have been stretched from the strike. If so, shim the keel nuts up to fresh threads before setting. Our smile repair done this way in 2004 has remained solid ever since.

 

[marcham]

The keel to hull joint uses an epoxy adhesive.... Lift the boat, unscrew the nuts and the keel won't move....

Every 380 I looked at had this, or had it recently repaired with just a few hrs of Labour.... There's no evidence of a grounding that we've seen, except maybe for the rudder.....

If it doesn't change in the slings, it's just fairing that's getting brittle with age....

 

[Tally Ho]

Has anyone lifted the sole and checked the stringers for damage? That would be my concern ( and evidence of a hard grounding).

Rudder can be straightened or replaced….keel can be rebed if necessary (or just fared if it hasn't actually moved). But if the grid system has been compromised, that could be a big issue.


Greg

 

[Boiler]

The furling issue could very well be an older sagging sail. I had trouble furling my old sail in and out due to the age of the sail (had the shape of a tea bag). My solution was to hold tension on the out haul while furling in, this helped remove the tendency of the sail to bunch. While deploying the sail I use the furl out function when deploying the sail, this would help get the bunched up sail out of the mast. The resolution to all of this maybe as simple as some mast maintenance by adjusting the foil tension in the mast or it may take a new sail.

My ultimate solution was new sails.

 

[skenn]

Thanks for all the informative responses, I decided to not proceed with the purchase of this one. The boat was listed in "sail away" condition, Obviously it isn't,, too many question marks.. I'll keep looking.

 

[Terry Cox]

I'll keep looking.

Wise choice.

 

[marcham]

Thanks for all the informative responses, I decided to not proceed with the purchase of this one. The boat was listed in "sail away" condition, Obviously it isn't,, too many question marks.. I'll keep looking.

Sounds like a good call... A good broker would offer that the seller could cover half the survey cost so that they would have a copy....

 

[tsmortsea]

I removed and replaced a rudder assembly on my H380 2001. Fun. The blade was saturated and the post had started to cause a tight steering. The replacement fit perfectly, steering with one finger now. Replacement rudder will have a stainless post, the factory fiberglass unit doesn't last long.

 

[skenn]

Thanks,
Although I elected to not purchase the boat I'd posted about, I'd done quite a bit of research into the repairs. I spoke to the people at Foss Foam about the rudder replacement. They were very helpful and had the molds for the 380 ready to go.
I'd looked at several videos about 'smile' repair and PSS shaft seals as well. Certainly all doable but more of a project than I wanted to take of for the price the seller was expecting.
SK