Washington State bans copper bottom paint

Status
Not open for further replies.
Feb 26, 2011
1,428
Achilles SD-130 Alameda, CA
Perhaps I stated that a little too simply. I would agree with what you are saying for non-ablative paints but for but for others it is more like trying to keep fresh biocide just around the boat.

Sorry for any confusion from my earlier post.
I wasn't referring to anything you'd posted.

Here's the point- The biocide in anti fouling paint DOES NOT kill the fouling organisms. It works by making the hull an unpleasant place for them to live. And even then, we all see that they still manage to attach. And it is more effective against high forms, like mollusks than it is against algea, which is why they now market anti-slime formulations. But the bottom line is that copper is a toxin in high enough concentrations. And if you let it go unchecked, as we have for decades, then the amount of copper in the water gets high than we'd like it to be. The time to cutail it is now, not after there is so much copper in the water that we do start seeing dead zones or other signs of real harm to the environment.
 
Nov 6, 2006
9,894
Hunter 34 Mandeville Louisiana
Fast, (laughing) We have NO paint on the boat.. We were counting on the deadly concentrations of 40 years of uncontrolled toxic runoff into our slip to have rid the area of those critters !! Doesn't seem to have bothered them much. The 12 foot gator that lounges there doesn't seem to mind either..
Now.. I do see problems where real toxins were allowed into a different bayou.. The runoff from a creosote plant has kept most of the benthic critters out .. but the grasses and slimes have persisted.. The site has been remediated now but the critters stay out.. Creosote and arsenic and other anti-rot stuff is definitely toxic.. with good controls, we can live with them now.. a reasonable way to handle it..
 
Nov 18, 2010
2,441
Catalina 310 Hingham, MA
I wasn't referring to anything you'd posted.

Here's the point- The biocide in anti fouling paint DOES NOT kill the fouling organisms. It works by making the hull an unpleasant place for them to live. And even then, we all see that they still manage to attach. And it is more effective against high forms, like mollusks than it is against algea, which is why they now market anti-slime formulations. But the bottom line is that copper is a toxin in high enough concentrations. And if you let it go unchecked, as we have for decades, then the amount of copper in the water gets high than we'd like it to be. The time to cutail it is now, not after there is so much copper in the water that we do start seeing dead zones or other signs of real harm to the environment.
Agreed
 
Feb 26, 2011
1,428
Achilles SD-130 Alameda, CA
Fast, (laughing) We have NO paint on the boat.. We were counting on the deadly concentrations of 40 years of uncontrolled toxic runoff into our slip to have rid the area of those critters !! Doesn't seem to have bothered them much. The 12 foot gator that lounges there doesn't seem to mind either.. ..
So it's all OK then, I guess. Why bother eliminating pollution if the "gator" is still alive. Jeezus. I give up.
 

kenn

.
Apr 18, 2009
1,271
CL Sandpiper 565 Toronto
Fast, (laughing) We have NO paint on the boat.. We were counting on the deadly concentrations of 40 years of uncontrolled toxic runoff into our slip to have rid the area of those critters !! Doesn't seem to have bothered them much. The 12 foot gator that lounges there doesn't seem to mind either.
yeah, but there are no 'gators attached to your hull now, are there? ;)

Another angle - the 'gators themselves have probably accumulated levels of toxins that would make them unsafe for humans to eat. So, for the alligators, the toxins act as human-repellent.

(Sorry, couldn't resist)
 
Nov 6, 2006
9,894
Hunter 34 Mandeville Louisiana
Hmmmm..Maybe ya have something there Kenn..;~) I did note that the gator didn't have barnacles on him.. I thought that if I polished him a bit, he might get that nice coppery color like a race boat bottom.. uuhhhhh.. He might not like that..
 
Nov 6, 2006
9,894
Hunter 34 Mandeville Louisiana
Clarifying.. I am not a proponent of pollution.. I do believe in reasonableness of controls and in use of "best available technology" as the industry guys say.. Take transportation for instance.. Internal combustion engines are one of the worst polluters on the planet.. yet they haven't been banned.. They have been cleaned up as technology progresses and reasonable controls have been added.. There is an alternative.. electrics.. but most folks agree that the technology needs advancement before the IC engine can be viably replaced.. Thing is, the engines aren't banned .. I see this copper thing as similar.. get a good antifoulant on the market at a reasonable price that has same or better performance and folks will buy it.. then ban copper..
 
Feb 26, 2011
1,428
Achilles SD-130 Alameda, CA
I see this copper thing as similar.. get a good antifoulant on the market at a reasonable price that has same or better performance and folks will buy it.. then ban copper..
Then you don't understand the marketplace. People will never move away from copper unless forced to. This is clear since effective alternatives to copper have been available for years. And people are going to have to get past hoping for an alternative that has the same or better performance . Ain't gonna happen unless some magic bullet is invented. That's just the nature of the technology.
 

Gary_H

.
Nov 5, 2007
469
Cal 2-25 Carolina Beach NC
Someone needs to invent some type of ultrasonic devise that is placed at the perimeters of marinas that instantly repels or kills barnacles and shellfish within it boundaries. Somebody work on that will ya.
 
Feb 26, 2011
1,428
Achilles SD-130 Alameda, CA
Someone needs to invent some type of ultrasonic devise that is placed at the perimeters of marinas that instantly repels or kills barnacles and shellfish within it boundaries. Somebody work on that will ya.
Been attempted many times. Do a Google search for ultrasonic anti fouling. You'll be amazed at how many ultrasonic devices are out there that you've never seen or heard of. There's a reason for that.
 
Feb 26, 2004
22,776
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Non-copper bottom paint sources

Many, many thanks. That's the heart of the issue. Interesting thread. Now, let's play nice, boys and girls...:):):)
 
Feb 26, 2011
1,428
Achilles SD-130 Alameda, CA
fastbottom's weekly bottom cleaning service.
I ain't advocating this as a way to increase business, although it is true that non-copper anti fouling alternatives typically need more frequent cleanings. In all likelihood, when the transition to non-copper paints actually begins in earnest, a large percentage of my customers will be resistant to increased hull cleaning frequencies. Which means, until everybody is on the same page about maintaining these new coatings, my job will be harder and their new anti foulings will fail more quickly than they should.
 

Faris

.
Apr 20, 2011
232
Catalina 27 San Juan Islands
Simply because another's thoughts are in disagreement with yours or the EPAs, does not make them illogical or irrational.
No, that alone does not make them illogical or irrational. Poor logic and lack of rational thought do.
Your "science" or education or anything else you bring to this discussion do not make your thoughts more accurate, better, correct, etc.
Yes. Yes they do. That's what science does for us. It relies on evidence to minimize the risk of the wrong conclusion. It prevents people from taking for fact that which they just want to be true. You can't ignore facts simply because they do not support your opinion.
But I have a right to voice them, with out recrimination and ridicule, as do you.
You're guaranteed no such right. That's why Fox News is the laughing stock of the world - because we ridicule the ridiculous. You do have a right to voice your opinion, but with rights come responsibilities. That is, you are responsible for what you say. You own it. That means that you take the good and the bad that comes with it. Whether people support what you say or disagree, you own the consequences. That's why freedom of speech is tricky. It does not guarantee popularity or freedom from controversy.

This forum does come with a guarantee of civility, but one could assume that the more ridiculous the statement, the harsher the criticism.
In your previous question to me about "people"...to me, the context and implication was clear that Faris was talking about a fair number of people
I don't know where you got that. Take organic food, for example. Although this is rapidly gaining popularity, it is still a niche market. There are several small farmers who could not compete with the big corporate farms and discovered that by switching to organic, they were able to sell to a niche market for much more than they were making selling non-organic produce competing against the produce giants.

Same thing applies to copper-free paint. It is simply a matter of consumer awareness. If manufacturers can make consumers aware of the availability and effectiveness of copper-free alternatives, people will buy them. Of course, not everyone, but if you understand business, this doesn't matter. Right now, I only know of two players in the copper-free market. This means that there is very little competition in that market. To own only 25% of that market, particularly if you are selling a product with a higher profit margin that copper-based paints (which will have a lower margin to remain competitive), a company can make a killing. Even if the copper-free market only accounts for a few percent of the overall market, if you have a big slice of that small pie, it can be better than having a tiny sliver of the much larger pie.
 

KD3PC

.
Sep 25, 2008
1,069
boatless rainbow Callao, VA
That's what science does for us.

Kind of like rogue waves did not exist until a "scientist" saw one up close and personal a few short years back, even then she was ridiculed...yet the "evidence was overwhelmingly in favor of their existence."

Or there are no longer 9 planets, pluto no longer counts.

Extinct fish still live...

Low flow toilets are the greatest invention, until SF discovers that there is not enough water used to push the poo along. Can you say clogged?

Or that Freon is the lone destroyer of...but wait it wasn't and isn't

That bumblebees can't fly

That Drag cars can not go over 150mph, then it was 165, then 180...AND that the human body can not sustain that mph, yet they did and they are and over 300mph. And the tires did not dissolve or ..

The computer model is 100%...yet the car/plane/tank that it designed will not drive/fly/shoot

Why is it that the weather models can not even replay what has happened, yet they are key to prediction and climate change?

I have "been blinded by science" and in an earlier decade was soundly beaten for questioning, asking and debating. And I, for one no longer believe the hype or that you guys are any brighter, smarter, accurate, etc, etc than someone who learns by doing and has some common sense.

Good luck with your new regulations and potential solutions. You are right.
 
Sep 20, 2006
2,912
Hunter 33 Georgian Bay, Ontario, Canada
This has been a very interesting read... lots of good information and for the most part civilized.

HOWEVER, it is drifting into personal attacks and I don't have tthe time to go through and edit out all the name calling etc. Please keep the opinions and arguements just that, your opinion and present the facts as you know them.
 

Faris

.
Apr 20, 2011
232
Catalina 27 San Juan Islands
KD3PC,

The examples you listed were not science. They were a list of conclusions that people come to based on the incomplete application of the scientific method. Often, people who mistrust science do not completely understand that it is a method, not a body of knowledge.

That is, we look at empirical evidence without prejudice. You brought up bumblebees - good example. For years, scientists did not understand how bumblebees can fly. They didn't make up a reason (or claim as you did that the can't fly). They simply admitted that they didn't know yet. This is good science.

You brought up the coelacanth (assuming that's what you were referring to). It was thought to be extinct because we hadn't seen any evidence of their existence for some time. No one concluded that they existed until evidence was produced that they did. Before that, they were assumed (not known) to be extinct because there was good reason to believe that - not because it supported anyone's ideology.

As I mentioned before, it is VERY difficult to prove causation in any field. But, that doesn't warrant ignoring the evidence. Let's take gravity for example. Not only do we really not understand gravity, we are pretty sure that Newton's Law is ultimately wrong. We can't prove that a wrench dropped from 20 stories up will really fall and hit you on the head, but there is strong statistical evidence to suggest it will. So, we wear hard hats at construction sites.

People don't argue with this science because it is within the scope of their experience. With copper contamination, we're dealing with something that most people can't really relate to because they can't see it. They assume (being human) that if they can't see its effects, it must not be real.

However, there are marine biologists for whom this is not outside their scope of experience. They have the tools and knowledge to measure this. They have determined that there is a strong statistical correlation between increased copper levels and a number of adverse effects on the ecosystem. Why then, would anyone want to leech copper into the water? Could it turn out that this correlation is just a coincidence? There is a low probability of this, but it is possible. But, knowing that it is probably harmful, then why do it?

This is what I don't understand.

Let's look at lead. We don't know that lead in drinking water is harmful. We just have strong statistical correlations between elevated lead and certain health problems. Would you let your kids drink water known to be high in lead? Or, would you just conclude that it is not worth the risk?
 

KD3PC

.
Sep 25, 2008
1,069
boatless rainbow Callao, VA
Then why are cigarettes still being sold...

We KNOW for a fact it is bad for you...per your information...they should be ...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.