Starting When Start Battery is Dead?

[Maine Sail]

Wow, I learned a lot about Hunters today! I had assumed that any boat manufacturer would incorporate a way to combine the battery banks, like on my Catalina. But then, Catalina didn't see any need to install any 12V receptacles! What's up with that? Just saying.

A lot of boat manufacturers do not provide a sound switching design for a cruising boat. Don't even get me going on the number of times I have had Beneteau or Jenneau owners left dead in the water when they killed both banks due to the way the House & Start switching is wired on many of these boats. They are not independent banks, as an owner might assume. They are simply bused on the load side of the switches so that when START and HOUSE are both switched to ON the banks are in PARALLEL, not isolated. If you leave both switches ON you kill BOTH banks.... The Beneteau/Jenneau switch wiring makes Hunters wiring actually look good. I mean at least you can't kill both bank just by leaving the start and house switches in the ON position....

 

[weinie]

A lot of boat manufacturers do not provide a sound switching design for a cruising boat. Don't even get me going on the number of times I have had Beneteau or Jenneau owners left dead in the water when they killed both banks due to the way the House & Start switching is wired on many of these boats. They are not independent banks, as an owner might assume. They are simply bused on the load side of the switches so that when START and HOUSE are both switched to ON the banks are in PARALLEL, not isolated. If you leave both switches ON you kill BOTH banks.... The Beneteau/Jenneau switch wiring makes Hunters wiring actually look good. I mean at least you can't kill both bank just by leaving the start and house switches in the ON position....

My 2015 Jeanneau had completely independent circuits for the house and engine loads as it came from the factory. (Charging 'combiner' not withstanding).

 

[Maine Sail]

My 2015 Jeanneau had completely independent circuits for the house and engine loads as it came from the factory. (Charging 'combiner' not withstanding).

Yes some later Bene & Jenneau's use the Cristec isolators and have independent switches, why I said many, but like Hunter many don't have a way to parallel or cross connect for emergency situations. Hanse does a similar thing, two independent banks, two ON/OFF's, no way to cross connect in an emergency.

A sound switching design on a cruising boat would...

*Allow Bank 1 / HOUSE to be used for both starting and house loads in an emergency

*Allow Bank 2 /START to be used for both starting and house loads in an emergency

*Allow full isolation of the bank not being used in an emergency

 

[Stu Jackson]

DayDreamer,

Please, do NOT even think about this. It is a rotten idea for a sailboat.

Here's why:
AGM Battery Issues and the Blue Seas Dual Circuit Switch (from Maine Sail) "DARN AGM Batteries"
http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?p=848465&highlight=darn%20agm

While you're at it, lots of y links come from here, which include a lot of Maine Sail's posts:

Electrical Systems 101 http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5977.0.html

If you are redoing it, you might want to look at adding this.

Add-A-Battery Kit - 120A 7650

 

[Terry Cox]

Our boat consists of two banks; starter and house. A few years ago the starter battery died while at anchor in Parks Bay across from Friday Harbor. My simple solution was to carry a pair of jumper cables. Odds of both banks being dead pretty remote. Connected the house to the starter battery, waited a few minutes for the juices to flow and the engine started right up.

 

[Stu Jackson]

My simple solution was to carry a pair of jumper cables.

And our simple solution is to turn a switch.

Your boat, your choice.

 

[Big Red]

Our Hunter 44 also has the house and start battery switches (on/off only) installed directly under the nav station. When leaving for home, we turn the start battery off but have always left the house batteries on but no draw (all breakers off) to keep them charged via shore power. In 3 short years, one house battery began boiling, fortunately, we were on board and immediately replaced it. 7 days later a second house battery boiled over and had to be replaced. The third house battery in the rotation seemed fine after several days so we left it but decided to turn off the house battery switch. Can anyone help me understand why the house batteries are boiling over and not simply dying? Is this indicative of a faulty regulator; inverter; age related??? The batteries are led acid and water level well maintained. Also, from the discussion, it sounds like the house switch might not even be connected. If it is active, what are the implications of turning it off? Very confused at this point. Thanks.

 

[LeslieTroyer]

I would look to your charger. Batteries boil when overcharged

 

[DayDreamer41]

Sounds as if you charger has entered the equalization mode where the charge voltage is (going from memory) 14.7 volts, which is intended to remove the sulfate crystals from the battery plates, this is a manual operation, batteries electrolyte levels need to check and topped off prior to this type of charge. Is it possible that your invertor charger has been put into equalization mode by mistake?

 

[ice breaker]

I had to replace the 50amp charger in my 2004 last year. It had losts its smarts and was constantly resetting its charging cycle. I would have thought it was the house batteries being bad......but I had replaced them only a week before. New charger solved the problem and saved the new batteries.

 

[seadaddler]

My 2007 H-36 came with only 2 4D's with a switch for using one bank at a time and when the 4D's went south I switched to 4-6volt GC batteries and one start battery and put in a off and on switch to combine the house with start and than last week put in a ACR and it will charge the start battery any time any charging from my solar or yanmar or Gen or charger and also have the the combine switch just in case.
Nick

 

[Boatdog41]

Daydreamer, you are not alone. I have a 2007 41DS and my manual states "To start an engine using parallel starting, simply hold down the parallel start button while pressing the start button." But THERE IS NO PARALLEL START BUTTON! I got a pair of jumper cables and it works fine.

 

[Rick486]

Daydreamer, you are not alone. I have a 2007 41DS and my manual states "To start an engine using parallel starting, simply hold down the parallel start button while pressing the start button." But THERE IS NO PARALLEL START BUTTON! I got a pair of jumper cables and it works fine.

Strange. On my 2007 44DS there is a solenoid that parallels both Start and House when starting the main engine. My concern always was that if the Start batt died, the solenoid won't close and you can't start the main engine from the House. As you, I carry jumper cables but for a different reason.
I love these battery threads. Like a good mystery novel.

 

[Marc14857]

I believe your system is the similar my 2004 Hunter 44 though I had dedicated house and start batteries. . The Herse relay combines the house bank with the start battery. When you turn the start switch to start, the relay is energized combining both batteries for the start cycle. When the switch returns to run the relay drops out and the batteries are isolated from each other. This assumes that both batteries are selected to on from their red switches. The issue however is that the 12Volts necessary to energize the relay comes from the house bank so if the house bank is also dead the relay will not pick up which seems to make sense.

 

[SEMPERAVANTI41]

Has anyone tried to use a $60.00 battery jump starter on a Yanmar diesel? I don't know if it would work on the Yanmar, but I was amazed that it was able to start my V6 Nissan gas engine with a dead battery.

 

[DayDreamer41]

@Marc14857 I can definitely tell you this is not the case on our Sapphire, last spring during our launch I had a dead starter battery, (come to find out the inverter/charger doesn't charge the start battery) anyway, the only way we could get the engine started was to jumper across from the house bank to the starter bank, somewhat easily accomplished if you have cables, of which I now keep on the boat.

 

[Gunni]

Strange. You have use jumper cables to get power from the house to the starter? That is a problem with an easy fix.

 

[Marc14857]

I may have the source of the 12 volt supply to energize the relay backwards and it may actually come from the starting battery which would account for your experience. I remember having to jump from one side of the relay to the coil. I'll recheck my schematics and get back to you on that.

 

[DayDreamer41]

Won't matter I am in the process of replacing the charging system and with these changes I will be replacing the Cole solenoid with a Blue Seas ACR with the ability to join the banks.

 

[Terry Cox]

Keep a pair of jumper cables on the boat for the just-in-case moment. That happened several years ago when our starter battery died in Parks Bay on the west side of Shaw Island on our two month cruise north. My solution was to jump from the house bank and it worked. Simple and effective. New starter battery in short order from a Friday Harbor marine supply place and we were back in the business of cruising.