Shroud lengths?

[nlmasopust]

Looks like there is still some activity on this forum, so I'll try it out.

Just bought a H170. My first Hunter, and first boat built in ACP, though I have sailed JY15s many times. Had an Oday 240 in Connecticut for 6 season previously and have been sailing since I could walk. This particular boat was imported to Thailand where I live from I believe Utah. Has soft cockpit sole, which I will reinforce. Very 'interesting' repair to likely failed rudder gudgeon mount of formed and welded aluminum. Thai importer repainted the boat with what looks to be decent automotive paint, a bit scary, but here in Thailand there are VERY few sailboats as practically no one sails, so pickins were slim... (Also cost way more than I'd pay for a similar conditions boat in USA... Ah well)

On to my question. The rig appears original. It is 23' 9” long, which another poster here confirmed a few years ago. The shrouds measure 5.6 meters (sorry for mixed units, we are metric here) exactly, which is correct per engineering drawings from Hunter. When we tested the boat out on Chao Phraya river in Bangkok, the seller had extended the shrouds with two stainless plates from Dwyer, but daisy chained them together. I thought they were just being lazy about getting enough rig tension, and the rig almost came down in a gust when the ring pins basically holding the whole thing up let go. Some excitement, but kept it under control and doused the main and sailed back under jib alone without folding the mast in half. I figured just needed to move shroud adjuster up several notches and it would be fine. No go, the whole setup is about 10cm/4" too short on each side, or I'd have to extend forestay and have serious mast rake.

Can anyone else confirm shroud length? 5.7m/18'8.4" seems like it would work. Any reason not to just try and get longer shrouds? Only thing I can think of that would cause this is mast somehow longer than originally, or gun'whale/chainplates somehow invisibly dropped down a lot. No evidence of that in the deck that I can see though.

Thanks for any thoughts, sorry for loooong post!

~Nate

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

Need photos what you have on the shrouds with mast up. Former dealer who was involved on design so the photos would help.
One other thing parts for boat can be obtained on the forum store on this site as new owner is a former employee

 

[nlmasopust]

Thanks Crazy Dave. Read lots of your posts on here so far, definitely value your opinion!
I stepped the rig with just the D1s connected yesterday, so I will do that again and take some photos to post. Will have to wait until tomorrow, it's already past 9pm and dark here.

All the original hardware for the shrouds, adjusters, chainplate u-bolts, etc. is there, though. Nothing out of the ordinary other than the extension plates on the top of the shrouds and extra ring and shackle between furler and forestay inside the jib luff. Will send photos.

My parents are coming to visit and I will have a set of the stainless cupholders to replace the plastic ones ordered from you guys for my parents to bring over at the very least. 2 of mine are missing, and the other 2 are pretty UV rotted, don't really trust them.

 

[Joe]

Many boats in that size range come with shroud adjusting systems. These pieces will normally have a lot of pin holes, some also have levers... often called "quick release" shroud adjusters. Here's some examples.. and please notice that they provide quite a bit in length allowance... so I'm thinking ordering or building a new set of shrouds may not be necessary.

 

[nlmasopust]

The stock ones, RF2331, in the 2nd and 3rd photos, are currently on the boat. Even with 6cm extension plates between upper Tang and swage fork at top of the shroud, it is still more than 7.5cm from even the very longest setting of that shroud adjuster.

It is weird. Will have photos in several more hours, off to work now.

 

[Will Gilmore]

Please take a picture of the mast step too, if there is any possibility that the step has been raised.

-Will (Dragonfly)

 

[nlmasopust]

Okay, many photos taken. Apologies for low light, it gets dark quickly here at 12.8 N Latitude. They are uploaded to this public folder on google drive (hopefully this works):
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1g7vosipQLv33cI63ZtD03GHhYadL0I3S

I took a video as well:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1sX4c1FoaMMYR6FIyxeSUXS5XehOa7752

Some notes:

I know the clevis pins on the tangs/extenders are too long. I'll be getting the correct ones.

Rig is inverted (Bent forward from spreaders on up) due to no support from the upper shrouds (V1's). I know this is not right.
Because of this, I suspect the lower shrouds (Inners, or D1's) will need to be longer as well, as they are at max extension. I will likely move the plates currently on the uppers down to them so I don't have to have as much swaging done.

The strings holding the upper shrouds will be 6cm longer if I removed the Dwyer lengthening plates at the tangs.

I can see now why some of you have switched to quick-release stay adjusters (CS Johnson 15-212 seems most popular). There is no way to get decent fore-stay tension without them. I will either buy some of these or figure out a way to make a purchase system using the jib halyard block and connecting stay at the head of the jib.

Anyways, mystery remains. How are the shrouds the correct length per Hunter documentation, but nowhere near long enough on the boat? Obviously the Previous Owner did some mucking around with things, but it is not obvious what to me, or how they might have sailed it, if they even did. Remember mast extrusion length matches with another H170 owner at 23'9".

Thanks everyone for any ideas, especially if I'm just blind to something obvious. I've been sailing and rigging dinghies for decades now, it's not rocket surgery, and right now the only solution I can see is buying/making longer extension plates at the tangs or getting longer shrouds made.

 

[Will Gilmore]

I don't know that rig, but my first impression is there should be more rake. Maybe your shrouds are right but the roller furling jib should be longer. It looks like the fore stay was moved up a couple of inches, judging by the marks on the mast.
Are your spreaders original? Could they be oversize?
I think Dave will have the answers for you.
Nice job on the pictures.

- Will (Dragonfly)

 

[nlmasopust]

Thanks Will. I would be shocked if this boat required as much rake as would result from pinning these shrouds even with the 6cm extensions. I've sailed Hobie 16s a bit and it is more than even they carry. The drawings from Hunter show very little rake. But you never know.

I thought about the spreaders. B&R style rigs generally have pretty wide ones. These don't appear to be wider than I would expect. I can measure them and post if any other H170 owners might be able to respond with their measurements. Engineering drawings don't list the length.

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

Like I said, I was involved with the design and will need photos with the mast up along with hardware on the shrouds and forestay. Not sure if a previous owner modified the boat. So folks, lets wait till we get the photos. I sold nearly a quarter of the production line.

 

[nlmasopust]

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1g7vosipQLv33cI63ZtD03GHhYadL0I3S

 

[nlmasopust]

I'll try linking to pertinent images directly here, although apparently Google deprecated this feature, let's see if we can cheat it:

EDIT: Nope, doesn't work. Funny enough they show up perfectly in the editor window, but when the website itself calls for the image, The Great Google denies access.

@Crazy Dave, the gallery with the images is at the link I've posted. They show up perfectly there.

 

[nlmasopust]

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[Will Gilmore]

maybe, when you haul the shrouds down tight enough, the bend comes out of the mast as the shrouds push in on the spreaders. The bow in the mast is like the recurve in a bow and arrow set.

That could shorten your stays enough, having the mast bent away from the backwards raking spreaders.

- Will (Dragonfly)

 

[BobbyFunn]

The spreaders may not be standard issue. I just measured mine and from exterior of mast to where the stays go through is 23.25 inches. When rigged the spreaders go back about 8-10 inch.

For Gods sake dont try to rake the mast. The lever adjusters are great but the tension should be just enough to take out the slack, then a tad more. Lower stays just get rid of slack.

Verify the tabs on the mast for the stays have not been relocated.

 

[nlmasopust]

Thanks Bobby!

I'll measure my spreaders when I get home. Rig is still at my house.

Boat is currently at a local fiberglass guy's place. We're going to reinforce the cockpit sole where it's come delaminated from the foam. I'm afraid of cracking it if we sail as-is.

 

[BobbyFunn]

I am noticing the bent mast as well. Get that mast straight and you should be ok with lever adjusters.

 

[Will Gilmore]

I just reviewed the owners manual and a rigging guide at https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAAegQICRAB&usg=AOvVaw0yEWOjksdaUiJdzUwI9xCo
I would definitely look at that bent mast as the culprit.
Connect your upper shrouds first. Then raise the mast and connect the lower shrouds. Follow the linked rigging guide to attach the roller furling last.
Use two people and have one pulling the mid mast section forward while connecting the forestay.

- Will (Dragonfly)

 

[BobbyFunn]

Will brings up a couple good points. Attach the stays first, then pin the jib.

With a bent mast you need to use your boom vang to purchase that jib forward.

Levers will help here as well since when slacked the levers add about 4 inches of length to stays.

If you have a minute. Measure the stay in yhe jib from eye to eye. Ill mrasure mine for comparison later. If for example the jib clipped a street light and was replaced, it may be a different size.

 

[nlmasopust]

Sorry for delayed answers guys, many thanks for all your followup! I have chartered a Platu 25 for a one-design regatta beginning of March and have beaucoup work to do, new sails to test, crew to train, etc. The Hunter will take a back burner until 2nd weekend of March.

The mast is not actually permanently bent, the forward bend is just from the forestay pulling forward unsupported by the upper shrouds.

Bobby, I measured my spreaders, they are 23.25" overall, extrusion length is 23" exactly. So they are the same.

My jib is at the local North loft, having a copy made as the old one was pretty bad due to UV damage. I am going to that marina to practice on the Platu 25 and test my new sails so I will stop by the loft and see if I can measure the wire stay in the jib luff and compare.

Thanks again for all the help. Can't wait to get this baby on the water next month!