Self Tacking System

[Jackdaw]

It can’t be an automated process, but it can be easy. I often do it by myself: Grab the lazy sheet, trip the auto-pilot tack feature, pull the working sheet off the self-tailer and wait for the sail to begin backing, release the working sheet, let the sail blow across, one wrap on the new working winch and begin bringing in the sheet, add some wraps on the winch, pull the sheet into the self-tailer and trim. Less than 30 seconds. Nobody can be anywhere in front of the mast while this is going on.

For sure, I should have said at least 3 JOBS. One person and an AP can to it all pretty well.

On our old C&C 35 with a 150%, the mast person had the job to 'run the clew around'. They would grab the loose clew and pull it back to near the correct position to be trimmed. Faster and easier on the sail.

 

[Brian D]

True, it probably (more like not) can't be automated, but it might be enticed to "assist" in the process with cam and pullies and guide ropes acting as rails. I bet it could be done. Won't be pretty, but it could be functional.

 

[DrJudyB]

Here’s a video of a modern track system that can be retro fitted to just about any boat. this system from Selden, and others like it can accommodate about a 95% jib with a low clew. The low clew is very efficient for upwind work. Systems like this can be retro fitted to older boats.

Hanse, Dufour, Halberg Rassy, Moody and Hunter and many others have been molding similar tracks right into the deck since the mid 1990s. These also are fitted with about 95% jibs with low clews. We sold quite a few of them in the last few years.

And finally, with electric reversing, self tailing winches, like the Revo from Lewmar, you can indeed have a fully automatic system for a large Genoa. Bavaria and Halberg Rassy have been putting these on their big boats for about 5 years now. You could retro fit these to any boat. They are a bit pricey, but totally awesome for effortless single handing.

Start at about 2:10

Judy

 

[Jackdaw]

And finally, with electric reversing, self tailing winches, like the Revo from Lewmar, you can indeed have a fully automatic system for a large Genoa. Bavaria and Halberg Rassy have been putting these on their big boats for several years now. I havent built a Genoa for one of these systems yet, but the design would be straight forward, same as any Genoa with a Genoa track.

DrJ,

Oh please. ;^) That powered tacking system is for a jib. It shows in the video. Powered self tailors are not fast enough to release a lazy sheet. Plus it simply connects the two to have both winches run in opposite directions at the same time and speed, something that happens with a jib, but never with a genoa.

 

[jwing]

Here’s a video of a modern track system that can be retro fitted to just about any boat. this system from Selden, and others like it can accommodate about a 95% jib with a low clew. The low clew is very efficient for upwind work. Systems like this can be retro fitted to older boats.

Judy

My eyes see that the blue/yellow line controls the in/out travel of the jib lead car. Am I wrong?

 

[DrJudyB]

DrJ,

Oh please. ;^) That powered tacking system is for a jib. It shows in the video. Powered self tailors are not fast enough to release a lazy sheet. Plus it simply connects the two to have both winches run in opposite directions at the same time and speed, something that happens with a jib, but never with a genoa.

Until the introduction of the electric winches that tack automatically, the available deck hardward for self-tacking headsails wouldn't accomodate anything bigger and a 95% jib 95% is the max that will fit with a club foot boom or a track in front of the mast.

Jackdaw is probably right that the system would not work well with a "large" or 150% genoa... but it would certainly be workable with a 110-120% genoa #2 (or maybe larger), if the helmsman steer through the tack in sync with the winches.

My main point I is that the electric reversing winches make it possible to have self tacking headsail larger than 95%. IMO, being able to build a self tacking 110-115% LP (or larger) is a significant improvement over the old 90-95% LP tackers., for a couple of reasons. The are bigger than 95% and they can still be sheeted inboard of the shrouds, for very tight angles upwind. (Actually ST jibs are typically a little smaller than 94% LP, but that's splitting hairs)

Modern boats tend to have large mainsail with small headsails for upwind efficiency. They sail upwind closer than older masthead rigs with big genoas. The newer boats have fractional rigs with swept back spreaders. To get really tight sheeting angles, these headsails are sheeted inside the shrouds. ie to the cabin top. These sails point like crazy, so they are specialized for upwind work.

To put some perspective on the recent shift to rigs with bigger mains and smaller headsails, I would frame the discussion in the context of where the trends in sailplans have been going over the past 20 years. Overall, the trend has been away from large genoas, which are being replaced by sails on free flying furlers. For upwind sailing in light winds, there is the cruising equivalent of a Code Zero. For downwind angles, there's the furling asymmetric cruising spinnaker.

This design shift to smaller headsails and bigger mainsail has facilitated the development designing cruising boats designed for short handed crews. Very few cruisers want to put up with the inconvenience of 150% genoas. I sell 20 135% genoas for every single 150% genoa I sell to cruisers.

A bit of techical explanation is needed to explain why the trend has been towards small headsails has to do with rig design. Modern boats have fractional rigs with spreaders that are swept aft. On a mast with swept back spreaders, the biggest headsail that can be sheeted inboard of the spreads is approximately a 110-115%. If we try to make it bigger, the leech of the sail hits the shroud and that's not practical (unless you make the leech with a deep hollow, which defeats the purpose of making the LP bigger).

IMO, being able to build a self tacking 110-115% LP is a significant improvement over the old 90-95% LP tackers. For those owners who have such a rig, and who want automatic tacking, the Revo system makes it possible.

At the present time, I think that the Revo system is pretty much state of the art for automatically tacking a medium headsail.

Judy
I play a sailmaker on the internet. ;^)

 

[DrJudyB]

My eyes see that the blue/yellow line controls the in/out travel of the jib lead car. Am I wrong?

I think you are correct, but I'll check with my tech support guys at Seldenon the finer points of using their system.

It might be good to be able to have different sheeting tension on port vs starboard tacks when going upwind if a) youre in a narrow channel that has a slight crosswind or b) there is a significant current that's not parallel to the wind direction.

Judy

 

[DrJudyB]

Another video of an aftermarket, self-tacking jib, shown on a Catalina with a masthead rig. This one looks like about an 80-90 percent jib. It's a Selden kit.

 

[All U Get]

;^)

OK You're on. But from my experience tacking a 150% genoa well is an art form involving at least 3 people, timing the release of the sheet, rate of turn, how much time spend head to wind, running the clew around, and sheeting in.

You figure that out and I'm impressed. But I bet not.

A few years ago I came up with this. First the jib car has to be on a huge horseshoe that crosses ahead of the mast, the angles and radii to be determined for best flow. Second, a tricing line added to the foot of the genoa that is elastic enough to pull the sail forward during the tack. It could be attached somewhere near the middle of the foot. Thirdly, the winches holding the sheets must be able pull the sheets across and hold tension on the sheets so they won't foul. In my perfect world it works fine, I just need the engineer to run with my concept.

 

[Will Gilmore]

I like it, All U Get.
I was picturing the genny sheet on a loop maybe around the transom to the genny clew on both sides. There could be a block at the clew for shortening or letting out the sheet for different points of sail (lengthening the loop). Maybe run it to the tack and back to the cockpit. At first, I was picturing it just twisting around the mast freely from tack to tack, but after Juby's post, run the looped sheet through an electric winch on the transom to roll the clew from one side to the other automatically. Then, you install a bail of sorts to guide the clew as it came around the mast. Cut the clew high to facilitate free movement.
The large 'U' shaped track would be better for control and then cut the clew low the stay closer to the car and give better sailing performance.

- Will (Dragonfly)

 

[Jackdaw]

Dream on.

 

[All U Get]

I got thinking about the spreaders and stays getting in the way, so the boat would have to have the track outside the stays.

 

[Kings Gambit]

I expect some here have used these things; most probably have not. My first experience with one was on a newish Pearson 34-2 that I (plus wife and 2 friends) took on a 4-day charter out of St. Petersburg, FL in April of 1991 or 1992 to a little anchorage ca. 40 n.mi. distant SE at Sarasota called "Otter Key." The ST system was in the sail plan for the new boat.

The spring-time winds in FL, even as late as mid-April, can be strong, still resulting from cold fronts (CF). As the cold front moves over SW Florida you typically experience strong & gusty NW-N winds followed in one or two days by strong & gusty NE winds. Otherwise, the "default" wind pattern is E to SE winds, generally moderate. It's possible in the course of a 4-day sail to experience moderate to strong E winds, followed by very strong NW-N winds, then fairly strong NE winds, depending on where your 4 days lie in the CF "cycle."

Long story, short. We lay at anchor at Otter Key our first (or second) night when the NW front blew through. A bit scary b/c I had not done much anchoring at that time, so had put out two bow anchors in the "V" pattern, then watched the boat swing back and forth between them most of the night to the sound of the heavy sighing of the trees above. By the time to return home the wind had veered to its NE direction and even though much of our return trip headed us NW as we traversed Sarasota Bay, the turn into Tampa Bay emerging from the bulkhead put us at about 030 deg M--nearly a dead-beat of about 15 n.mi. to destination.

So, I can say with certainty, I did not like the ST set-up we were forced to use. The boat did not point well, and I have no doubt it kept us slow. So, if you want sit in the cockpit and not really get anywhere fast upwind, but have to do little work, then it might be for you! Hey--it's all about the journey, right?--as we like to say. Ultimately, however, we of course had to motor much of that last day to get home on time; but, I saw enough to convince me.

On our latest charter last summer on the Hanse 495, we had the option of rigging the jib for self-tacking or manual tacking. We had electric sheeting winches so we chose manual. It wasn't all that good either. So, don't fall for that idea.

FYI--the Pearson 34-2; see for yourself.
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=1820

 

[Jackdaw]

I expect some here have used these things; most probably have not. My first experience with one was on a newish Pearson 34-2 that I (plus wife and 2 friends) took on a 4-day charter out of St. Petersburg, FL in April of 1991 or 1992 to a little anchorage ca. 40 n.mi. distant SE at Sarasota called "Otter Key." The ST system was in the sail plan for the new boat.

The spring-time winds in FL, even as late as mid-April, can be strong, still resulting from cold fronts (CF). As the cold front moves over SW Florida you typically experience strong & gusty NW-N winds followed in one or two days by strong & gusty NE winds. Otherwise, the "default" wind pattern is E to SE winds, generally moderate. It's possible in the course of a 4-day sail to experience moderate to strong E winds, followed by very strong NW-N winds, then fairly strong NE winds, depending on where your 4 days lie in the CF "cycle."

Long story, short. We lay at anchor at Otter Key our first (or second) night when the NW front blew through. A bit scary b/c I had not done much anchoring at that time, so had put out two bow anchors in the "V" pattern, then watched the boat swing back and forth between them most of the night to the sound of the heavy sighing of the trees above. By the time to return home, the wind had veered to its NE direction and even though much of our trip back headed us NW as we traversed Sarasota Bay, the turn in to Tampa Bay emerging from the bulkhead put us at about 030 deg M--nearly a dead-beat of about 15 n.mi. to destination.

So, I can say with certainty, I did not like the ST set-up we were forced to use. The boat did not point well, and I have no doubt it kept us slow. So, if you want sit in the cockpit and not really get anywhere fast upwind, but have to do little work, then it might be for you. Ultimately, we had to motor much of that last day to get home on time; but, I saw enough to convince me.

Our latest charter last summer on the Hanse 495; it had the option of rigging the jib for self-taking or manual. We had electric sheeting winches so we chose manual. It wasn't all that good either. So, don't fall for that idea.

FYI--the Pearson 34-2; see for yourself.
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=1820

Self tackers have really come into their own in the era of main-driven, non-overlapping rigs. Its no surprise to me that a masthead boat with a tiny main that is supposed to have a big genoa is turd with a ST jib.

A friend of mine has a new Hanse 415. Fractional and designed for a track ST, the thing is a witch upwind. Things rates like 68 in PHRF. That will destroy anything south of a First 40. Or the late lamented Blue Jacket 40. Now THAT was a nice boat. Again, ST from the ground up, this time with a Hoyt boom.

 

[Kings Gambit]

I'm sure the fore-boom makes a difference!

 

[Jackdaw]

I'm sure the fore-boom makes a difference!

Indeed. It actually helps more for off-the-wind sailing, when you want the clew out but not up. The track on the 415 is better for upwind work. Well designed, you can really get some nice trim.

Hanse uses a very clever sheeting scheme. The single sheet comes from a common pivot point not on the foredeck, but UP THE MAST. Like a topping lift. Nice.

 

[Kings Gambit]

There may be a little bit of "apples & oranges" here I now see. In the first pic the ST was mounted to control the sail on an inner stay. I know we see these fairly often in some cutter rigs. I once sailed on a IP-37 to Dry Tortugas rigged with a ST staysail on its own boom. In the Hanse you pictured the ST is on a track as in the P-34-2, but it controls the principal headsail, not a staysail or variety of. Which are we discussing the merits of?

 

[Jackdaw]

There may be a little bit of "apples & oranges" here I now see. In the first pic the ST was mounted to control the sail on an inner stay. I know we see these fairly often in some cutter rigs. I once sailed on a IP-37 to Dry Tortugas rigged with a ST staysail on its own boom. In the Hanse you pictured the ST is on a track as in the P-34-2, but it controls the principal headsail, not a staysail or variety of.

Both pics show the boats with their jibs.

The BJ40 has a code 0 of a furler in front of the forestay, out on the prod. It trims like a spinnaker. Its for light air reaching.

 

[Kings Gambit]

Ah!

 

[DrJudyB]

Harken collaborated with Jenneau to develop an "assisted sail trim" package providing software to operate electric winches, electric furlers and an automated mainsheet trim device installed inside a boom. It's quite sophisticated.

It does not replace the skipper, but takes all of the manual labor out of trimming the sails. It can be set to trim the mainsheet and genoa sheets when the helmsman changes course, tacks, etc.

The system even provides an automated anti-heeling function - the instruments will ease the sheets when the angle of heel exceeds a preset limit.

The hardware and software are very expensive. It was developed for a couple sailing a big boat shorthanded. If you're already spending the money for electric furlers on the main and genoa, and electric winches, the software system is only another extra $10,000 or $20,000.

It's one finger sail management.

@Jackdaw: it can handle even 130%-ish genoas.

Judy

https://www.harken.com/uploadedFiles/Product_Support/PDF/AST-Brochure_Jeanneau.pdf