Sailing Trends: Your Perception?

TomY

Alden Forum Moderator
Jun 22, 2004
2,759
Alden 38' Challenger yawl Rockport Harbor
Twenty or so years ago, my club held an annual regatta we would get 40+ boats, this year it was under 20.

Ten years ago our Wednesday night beer can racing would 20 to 25 boats, this year maybe 10.

Not the 90% drop, but a significant drop. This is on Lake Ontario.
That's quite a decrease in racing, which is too bad. Have you seen as large a drop in sailors and sailboats?




I used to race a bit but I haven't for a couple decades (so I wouldn't see the decrease). While sailing is strong in my area, racing in large numbers doesn't appear to be. Seems there is a smallish group of dedicated racers around that make up the bulk of the type of racing I used to do (PHRF).

Masts are still thick in NE harbors. Here's mine. I've seen the number of boats and moorings grow in last 20 years. As well, there are more surrounding marine biz. Sailing has never been a mainstream recreation, anywhere but apparently it's more mainstream here, than in other parts of the country.
Rockport Harbor aerial large.jpg
 
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Oct 22, 2014
21,104
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
Sailing has never been a mainstream recreation
Tom, agree with the thought. I have my boat moored in Port of Everett. The site of a former paper mill. There are nearly 2000 boats in slips. Most never leave their slips. Looking around you’d think the boat industry was alive and well.
 
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TomY

Alden Forum Moderator
Jun 22, 2004
2,759
Alden 38' Challenger yawl Rockport Harbor
In the interest of the OP'ers search for trends, I've been watching this marina evolve.

http://one15brooklynmarina.com/sailing-club-school/

Our daughter lives in Brooklyn NY. She moved there after college and works in Manhattan. I'm familiar with the waterfront there having close relatives living in Brooklyn. Plus I've been through this industrial waterway a couple times on my own boat.

The best part: For a century, towns, cities, sold the soul of their waterfront to the private sector. Brooklyn, joining a small trend of some municipalities, bought back some of their waterfront along the East River.

After turning much of the gain into a beautiful waterside park for people to enjoy, they leased an area of the shore to be turned into a marina.

This marina is different. There is dockage(and a state of the art wave barrier), and it's NYC priced (everything is high), but it also includes a sort of sailing club. Without the trappings of a 'yacht club', you pick a sailing plan, pay your fee (dues), and you're in. Plans range from simple social to extensive use of the clubs high tech boats.

In addition, a % of proceeds from the club are re-invested in water access and small community supplied boats. This in no way promotes typical 'sailing' as most of us define it: you own a sailboat.

But, this is the first water access in this area in generations.


So far, in talking to locals, it's working as planned. My daughter walks by on her way to work and sends back pics. Not exactly Maine, but we like it all.
One15 Marina Brooklyn.JPG
 
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Jul 27, 2011
5,002
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
King's pawn to King 4.
:hijack:
- Will (Dragonfly)
In old fashioned chess notation (descriptive), that move would be notated as: 1. P-K4 since only one of White's pawns could advance to the K4 square. In modern chess notation (algebraic) it would be notated as 1. e4.:biggrin:
 
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Aug 1, 2011
3,972
Catalina 270 255 Wabamun. Welcome to the marina
Meriachee, looks like what ever the bridge is spanning is frozen. Seems early in the year.
We’ve had a solid crusting for a few weeks. That video was last January or thereabouts.
 
Jun 21, 2004
2,533
Beneteau 343 Slidell, LA
My limited association with millennials, with whom I have worked, is that they graduate from school with more debt than previous generations. They purchase homes that they can't afford and have to have upscale vehicles. Throw in a child or two and they are so financially strapped and they can't consider hobbies that require moderate costs. They are content belonging to health clubs and spending time on their computers and cell phones. And, don't forget about their daily fix for lattes & mochas at Star Bucks. There is no such thing as deferred gratification with this generation; they want everything now. They expect to have the same standard of living as their parents who have worked for 30 years and have lived & spent more conservatively. This group is just not into sailing, boating, motorcycles, cars etc., as previous generations; virtual experiences & social media is their thing.
 
Jun 21, 2004
2,533
Beneteau 343 Slidell, LA
Definitely fewer sailors around the New Orleans metro area and Gulf Coast. One reason is the change in demographics that many of you have mentioned. Another factor in my locale is the Katrina effect. At least 30% of the sailboat fleet was destroyed. Not nearly as many USED boats available at affordable prices. My marina is less than half the size that it was; all 5 floating docks were destroyed and only 3 fixed docks remain and that roughly corresponds to the number of boats lost. Similar scenario in New Orleans. Same has happened along the entire Gulf Coast, to a lesser extent, as many areas have been affected by major storms over the past 15 years. Fewer boats available translates to fewer sailors. Not many people have the disposable income to purchase a $150 - $200K and up NEW boat.
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,081
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
There is no such thing as deferred gratification with this generation; they want everything now. They expect to have the same standard of living as their parents who have worked for 30 years and have lived & spent more conservatively. This group is just not into sailing, boating, motorcycles, cars etc., as previous generations; virtual experiences & social media is their thing.
There was no such thing as "deferred gratification" for our generation, either. Our parents knew what it was, because they lived thru the depression. When the living became easy and hard work provided prosperity for our parents, they lavished everything they earned on making life easier and more enriching for us. No wonder our kids expect the same standard of living as us. We reaped the rewards that our parents gave to us immediately upon graduating from college and began pursuing our careers. The money has always been easy come for our generation and we spent it on everything. Why shouldn't they expect the same? Our standard of living was far greater with far less deferred gratification than our parents. I witnessed this first hand. Sure, college was more affordable in our day. My first year for tuition, room and board for an out-of-state student at Iowa State was just $2,300 per year. By the time I went to college, my parents didn't even have to save for it. Instead, I benefited by contributions for my own kids education. Consequently, including with my own ability to set money aside, they all graduated college without debts.

It's lazy to make generalizations about "millennials". My 4 kids witnessed the "obligation lifestyle" that I willingly pursued, probably in mimicry of my own parents, and have rejected it. They are all minimalists. They have no college debt (thanks to their predecessors), have either no debt or minimal debt for their residences, no debt for late-model automobiles, and they live an outdoors-oriented lifestyle with significant travel thrown in with freedom from both time constraints and monetary constraints. They've all rejected the lifestyle that makes one a slave to a job. They work creatively and stretch the money they earn to pursue the life that they want, which does not include health clubs, lattes and hours with eyes trained to a computer screen. They did learn one thing from me that I'm happy about. They all focus on their health and happiness, and by the results, they have been pretty darn successful. However, they have set aside the anxiety of living for the future, as our parents did, and as we do. How this affects their future is yet to be seen.
 
Oct 19, 2017
7,746
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
This might be better said as "Boating Trends". So, I'm thinking that there is something going on in terms of traditional ownership. What I am seeing is younger adults opting out of boat ownership and into boat-sharing collectives, in some ways like an Uber model. I think this is largely an urban-metropolitan trend. First, they are already less committed to ownership. For example, they rent their apartment or condo rather than own it. Second, they may not own a vehicle, using ride-sharing services and public transport. Third, they have no or limited mechanical skills never having the background or patience to learn them.
Actually, I think that description described me when I first got married and went out on my own, except there was no ride sharing programs other than car pooling. People who grow up in big cities often never own a car.
I remember a street survey conducted informally a few decades ago in which a magazine reporter asked a random group of people some basic grade school knowledge questions. Things like, "who was our first president?", "In a mathematical equation, do you add or multiply first?", "Is Mississippi a proper noun or a regular noun?" The performance of the "average" person was deplorable. Something like 30% was the score. The conclusion was that our school system was really falling in standards and performance. However, as it turns out, a similar survey had been conducted at various time in the past for the very school system the reporter was lamenting the loss of and the average citizen performed no better in the 1800s then in the 1900s and that is about the same as those from 2000.
My point is that as we individuals move from one era to the next, our perceptions change because we look back and remember ourselves from the point of view of someone who has been through it, arrived, in a sense. When we see others still in the process, we can sometimes fail to remember when it was us doing the same things.
What do the millennials want that might bring boating into their lives? I'm not sure who the demographics were that bought NEW boats in the 70s or 80s but I'm pretty sure it wasn't 20 somethings. My parents bought me a pram when I was 10. My father bought a hobie cat for me and my wife after I got married but anything else was up to me and I just now, at the age of 54 bought a used 19' weekender to fix up. I was really interested in sailing too. Circumstances didn't come together for me.
My father had a pram when he was 10. My earliest memory of him owning a sailboat was some 18' day sailor in his late 20s. Then he sold it and concentrated all his money and time on a head boat business. His next sailboat would be our 56' live aboard about 4 years later. In his retirement, he went through a lot of big expensive sailboats that he sailed around the globe. Now he's out of the sailing business. Just enjoying being home.
Millennial live in a world with some resources we didn't grow up with, otherwise, I expect their lives and motivations are very similar to what ours were when we were twenty something. I grew up around boats, my wife grew up in small town in northern New Hampshire. My kids therefore, didn't grow up around boats.
I think you are asking about turning an adult generation on to boating that didn't get the childhood foundation to start on.
One personal example. My wife loved our hobie but otherwise thought of sailing as expensive. Renting even seemed expensive. She was interested in saving up and buying a boat sometime. A friend of hers bought a boat, some 17' bow rider. $35,000. A year later, the husband told me he's calculated how much it had cost him on a per-ride basis. All he had to do was take the total cost of the boat and divide by 3. When my wife heard that she became a fan of renting. He sold his boat the next year.
What were the yacht club's demographics in years past? Besides membership being down overall, who were members traditionally? Did the club have a lot of twenty somethings 30 years ago, were there a lot of families, young kids in those families, mostly 30 somethings, middle aged working men, women, many retired people? What was it about the yacht club that made those people want to join? What encouraged them to maintain their memberships?
I watch my son, 26 and I see a completely different social structure from when I was young. He took his time getting into a long term relationship in favor of sampling the bar. He and his girlfriend practically announced their exclusivity formally. Now, with her off at some university to get a law degree, they apparently have retracted their exclusivity clause. They still are a couple but the lines are vague. How does this behavior figure into a commitment to sailing and a club membership? There is no problem with commitment for them, just a different expectation around its specific meaning.
Is this analogous to the Uber, car/time sharing paradigm? One new boat, 10 users? My wife and I are buying a house to list on AirB&B. This seems like the same model.
Offer these young people a chance too live their boating life online. Let them show all their Facebook friends what a great time they are having learning to sail, cruising off-shore, racing, extreme sailing,... they may flock to the yacht club. Encourage them to Instagram their meals, the specialty drink at the bar, shaking hands with the Commodore, they may come in droves. They just need to read a Travelocity review.
I'm sorry for the length but I'm nothing if not wordy. I hope this provides some interesting thoughts to incubate on.
- Will (Dragonfly)
 

Rick D

.
Jun 14, 2008
7,139
Hunter Legend 40.5 Shoreline Marina Long Beach CA
I really appreciate the thoughtful and generous responses to my question(s). I am undecided how to approach this but I do think the clubs belonging to the Association do need some help thinking this through and asking the right questions. I don't know the answer(s) but there won't be any without the right questions asked.
 

TomY

Alden Forum Moderator
Jun 22, 2004
2,759
Alden 38' Challenger yawl Rockport Harbor
There was no such thing as "deferred gratification" for our generation, either. Our parents knew what it was, because they lived thru the depression. When the living became easy and hard work provided prosperity for our parents, they lavished everything they earned on making life easier and more enriching for us. No wonder our kids expect the same standard of living as us. We reaped the rewards that our parents gave to us immediately upon graduating from college and began pursuing our careers. The money has always been easy come for our generation and we spent it on everything. Why shouldn't they expect the same? Our standard of living was far greater with far less deferred gratification than our parents. I witnessed this first hand. Sure, college was more affordable in our day. My first year for tuition, room and board for an out-of-state student at Iowa State was just $2,300 per year. By the time I went to college, my parents didn't even have to save for it. Instead, I benefited by contributions for my own kids education. Consequently, including with my own ability to set money aside, they all graduated college without debts.

It's lazy to make generalizations about "millennials". My 4 kids witnessed the "obligation lifestyle" that I willingly pursued, probably in mimicry of my own parents, and have rejected it. They are all minimalists. They have no college debt (thanks to their predecessors), have either no debt or minimal debt for their residences, no debt for late-model automobiles, and they live an outdoors-oriented lifestyle with significant travel thrown in with freedom from both time constraints and monetary constraints. They've all rejected the lifestyle that makes one a slave to a job. They work creatively and stretch the money they earn to pursue the life that they want, which does not include health clubs, lattes and hours with eyes trained to a computer screen. They did learn one thing from me that I'm happy about. They all focus on their health and happiness, and by the results, they have been pretty darn successful. However, they have set aside the anxiety of living for the future, as our parents did, and as we do. How this affects their future is yet to be seen.
You have some great kids that I'd be happy to know. I've been lucky too and I don't know many (any?) kids that fit the stereotypes.

Any useful data on sailing participation is hard to find. Sailing isn't a main stream recreation. But here's another graph that shows the last 10 years of numbers of participants. This has nothing to do with racing.

The interesting thing is that millennials, defined as "a person reaching young adulthood in the early 21st century", have reached sailing participation age during this time.

Screen Shot 2017-11-20 at 6.47.30 AM.png


This graph (for whatever it's worth), reflects the sailing around my world in the last 10 years. Except for an increase in participation (and sailboat buying) that took place around the last boom (mostly realestate driven), sailing participation has been pretty stable. No big changes, certainly no drastic drop. Somebody is replacing sailing participants that inevitably age out.

My prediction for the next 10 years of sailing participation: Flatline.
(I think there will be an increase in racing activity, and a decrease in contemporary "cruising" on a sailboat).
 
Jan 11, 2014
11,425
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
Tom,

What's the source for that graph?
It does track economic trends. Note the rise until 2009 when the recession began and a gradual return to 2007 levels once the economy started to pick up in 2014. Supports some of the discussion here about the cost and economics. It also points to the stability of the sailing population, 90% of us will find a way to sail regardless of the economy or we're in financial positions to be relatively insulated from economic downturns.

Be interesting to see a graph for the same time period for boat sales, new and used.
 

TomY

Alden Forum Moderator
Jun 22, 2004
2,759
Alden 38' Challenger yawl Rockport Harbor
Tom,

What's the source for that graph?
It does track economic trends. Note the rise until 2009 when the recession began and a gradual return to 2007 levels once the economy started to pick up in 2014. Supports some of the discussion here about the cost and economics. It also points to the stability of the sailing population, 90% of us will find a way to sail regardless of the economy or we're in financial positions to be relatively insulated from economic downturns.

Be interesting to see a graph for the same time period for boat sales, new and used.


https://www.statista.com/statistics/191300/participants-in-sailing-in-the-us-since-2006/

I did some googling for sailing participation and it came up. I also found some similar data that breaks 'us' into 2 or 3 groups. More or less, light participants and hard core sailors (which I think you find on the forums).

But we're all lumped together into the 4 to 5 million participants. I can't speak to the accuracy but I do agree with some of the obvious trends you mention. Sailing popularity follows economics, to a point.

In my sailing world (of several decades of observation), most participants are grass roots: grew up in family that sailed. The next group comes in cold at any age. I see a large portion of participants that come into sailing - and back out again, that didn't become hard core.

These observations don't say much outside of recreation in general.

I also think mainstream media does more to promote sailing than it is realized. I'm not so sure it's a good way to promote sailing. I'm referencing the crazy ocean racing that's so visually appealing on screens. And a more subtle type of promotion that has borrowed the beauty of sail: an example, Ralph Lauren or LL Bean using sailing as a modeling platform.

My millenial son in his dollar boat, trying to get home (which it seems is always to windward),... better describes sailing for newbs. He's been sailing since he was a baby and quickly forgot what a miserable slog this was. A true sailor.
TT sailing home.  (1 of 1).jpg
 
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Oct 19, 2017
7,746
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
... not so sure it's a good way to promote sailing. I'm referencing the crazy ocean racing that's so visual appealing on screens.
I can see there might be a strong appeal to a small segment of the population for images like the Clipper Round the World Race or the America's Cup but, for me, it better highlights the exclusivity and unreachable economic heights that the world of sailing represents. I think that some young person, who might be in a position to pursue some new recreation, would look at a report of the Clipper race and maybe hear some captain's bio and their mental response would be, that's interesting but, I'm not part of that group, then they would go checkout the latest Ski Nautique or jetski.
If the sailing promotional machine toned it down a little, showed some affordable class racing, lasers, for example, the gates to the sailing world might not looked locked like they do when highlighting maxi racing.
- Will (Dragonfly)
 
Aug 2, 2010
502
J-Boat J/88 Cobourg
It's lazy to make generalizations about "millennials". Scott, it sure is lazy to brand them all the same and to pre-judge them, but it only makes sense to be aware of the trends.
This sentence from you is just as broad and accurate/inaccurate as the ones you are referring to above. When the living became easy and hard work provided prosperity for our parents, they lavished everything they earned on making life easier and more enriching for us.
As an employer and parent of 5 of them, I care about what motivates them and what they really crave. It seems to me that in large part, they are risk averse. The males are so much more concerned about their personal appearance and perceptions of their behaviours by their peers than males of our generation. Finding cheats/hacks in video games has made the practice of doing anything that you could leave to others a real stress for them. I could go on but it feels like I am picking on them and that is not what I want to do. In the same way that when governments spend enormous amounts of money that they do not have terrifies me, I need to see more ownership of their responsibilities in the world before I can relax and feel that I have done my job.
 
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Oct 26, 2008
6,081
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
It seems that many of us old farts seem to forget that we grew up being raised by TV. I'd bet that most of us could spend hours reciting our favorite TV shows from the 60's and 70's (some of us even earlier). So, why do we denigrate millennials for having their nose glued to their smart phone and say they have no outside interests? We had the same obsessions that made us glued to a screen.
I think there is a difference in the way our kids were raised, though. My parents simply bought me the stuff I wanted and turned me loose to pursue my interests on my own. I had no perception whatsoever that I would need to be lead by my parents into any activity that interested me. I simply needed the resources and I was off on my own. It was like that for skiing, after seeing the 1968 Olympics on TV with Jean Claude Killy winning everything. I simply had to do it. Being an early-teen kid in a suburb of Chicago, I had no idea that the sport even existed, but on my own, I figured out how to make it happen ... all I had to do was badger my dad into getting skis for me and I took it from there. I learned to sail because my mom insisted that we should have a small sailboat at our summer cottage. They bought it and set it on the beach ... I took it from there as much as I wanted.
What our generation (boomers) has done is completely different. We were determined to organize and regiment our kids life so they had activities lined up and scheduled on a full time basis. We wanted them exposed to everything and made sure that they had lessons for everything, whether they wanted it or not. It seems that every aspect of their recreation and education had to be organized by us for them. Consequently, many of them simply never had the freedom to choose their own destiny. If our kids look at maxi-racing and can't relate to it because it appears too foreign, it is most likely because we didn't encourage any kind of imagination while we made their childhood so regimented.
As it turns out, the small boat, cruising formula for seeking adventure and travel is perfect for minimalist-thinking millennials. They will be interested, as I am finding out.
 
Jul 12, 2011
1,165
Leopard 40 Jupiter, Florida
Rather than speculate, I'd like to ask some questions to the assembly to do some research ... Putting yourself in the role of a 25-year old, if you did not have a family or friend with a yacht, how would you go for a sail to try it out? @Jackdaw constantly writes about his lake sailing association that invites people for a race or training, but what about the rest of you. I know that my town has a training club, including adult classes, but does little to pair graduates with boat owners. If I was an interested younger person in your town and did not know someone, how would I 'get on a boat' this summer? Would taking a 6-week class in summer be a requirement to sail? Have you looked on your club web page, or called the yacht club?

I went to a 'contra dance' this weekend (with absolutely no experience), and after a half-hour walkthrough, I was dancing with the whole congregation. No one laughed at my beginner mistakes. I was welcomed, thanked for coming by both participants and leaders, and invited back at the end of the evening. BTW: It's fun if you've never tried it. We cannot 'sell' sailing if it is exclusive, not welcoming, and expensive.

Finally, rather than asking this board, why don't we each ask the younger people over Thanksgiving dinner. Trust me, it's a better topic than politics! Most of your family knows you sail, and many have been for at least one ride. I'd be curious to the answer of "why not you?" or "would you be interested in crewing on my races this summer?". Please report back with any answers, but only from people under 30!
 
Jul 27, 2011
5,002
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
There are several youth sailing programs among the yacht clubs of the Long Beach area supported by foundations that do not require any prior association with the hosting yacht club for participation. That is, they are open to the public. Attendance varies year to year, but I think I'm safe in saying that several hundreds to even a few thousand kids have been introduced to sailing via these programs over the past 10 yr. As far as I can tell it has had no effect on on-going participation rates among the youth or recruitment into sailing via yacht clubs, etc. Compare that to something like the interest in SUPs which has a life of its own and has taken off everywhere along the southern California coast among millennials. It's a minimal investment in time and expense; it's social, and it's not scary. You can do it by yourself on your own board. Considering that much paddle boarding takes place in the same harbors and marina areas where sailboats are berthed, the kids could hardly not notice the comings and goings of the sailboats. They know where the boats are, what they do, and where they do it, etc. So another question for your T-giving dinner-why are you contented with SUPs when with a little more effort you could be sailing?!:doh:
 
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Oct 26, 2008
6,081
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
Linda ski patrol.JPG
It's a minimal investment in time and expense; it's social, and it's not scary. You can do it by yourself on your own board. Considering that much paddle boarding takes place in the same harbors and marina areas where sailboats are berthed, the kids could hardly not notice the comings and goings of the sailboats. They know where the boats are, what they do, and where they do it, etc.
Millennials are embracing a minimalist lifestyle in increasing numbers. It's all about reducing their footprint on the environment and they also are rebelling against the pressures that our society (meaning their parents) place on "succeeding". We grew up wanting everything, all the time. We even had an anthem for it "Life in the Fast Lane". Many of us still want to embrace it. Racing may be losing appeal among millennials. Many see competitiveness and pursuit of success as a trap. It's not leading to freedom, it's suffocating freedom. This is a picture of my daughter and her day at the office several years ago. She would sooner die than be utilizing the economics degree that she has working on Wall Street as she was recruited.

Now, she divides her life between the mountains and the ocean. She is far more likely than I am to live on a sailboat and continue her travels on a slow boat, as she has just recently been talking about. She didn't need me to expose her to sailing. I simply exposed her to independence. The idea of a minimalist footprint appeals. These are the folks who will buy the old sailboats that we are sailing. The idea of preserving an existing resource, rather than consumption of a newly manufactured product appeals.
 
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