problems with cracks on Hunter 216

chuckwayne · Mar 22, 2015

The 216 would be a great boat for your needs - it has the additional benefit of great stability from the 500lb keel.
Some of the boats were made from a defective batch of plastic and developed cracks, especially if left unprotected under snow. If the one you're considering has no cracks, it's probably fine - ours is a 2006 and is crack free. If cracks do develop, they are easily fixable - look in the archives for the directions.

Crazy Dave Condon · Mar 23, 2015

I second that on what chuck says. I use to be a dealer and sold quite a few and in fact introduce the boat for Hunter. Chuck mentioned the materials were defective in some batches because the mfg of the plastics sometimes would change the specs on the materials without Hunter's knowledge but when the formula was correct, many or most of the boats were crack free.

When cleaning, never use acetone on the boat as it will attack the plastic skin. Keep us posted.

Crazy Dave Condon · Mar 24, 2015

Before declining on that boat, see what the issues are. Ask the owner to send you some photos and then send them to me at davecondon@mindspring.com plus post them here. I use to repair those and in many cases I gave Hunter some advice on repairing them.

I will confer with Chuckwayne too as we are good resources on this boat.

Jackdaw · Mar 24, 2015

EVERY APC boat I've seen in Minnesota has cracks. Cold kills them. Maybe people just show me the bad ones. A friend of mine has a 170 he cannot GIVE away. Its really too bad. The 216 was a very cool design.

Take a look at a Sonar if the keel does not scare you. If new is OK, the new Beneteau First 22 ASA would fit the bill perfectly.

Crazy Dave Condon · Mar 25, 2015

Jackdaw;

There are a lot in cold climates not cracked. It was the mfg. of the skin who at times changed the formula and Hunter stood good on the boat during warranty. Due to the issues though, they went back to fiberglass. I was not really a big fan of ACP.

Jackdaw · Mar 25, 2015

Crazy Dave Condon said:
Jackdaw;

There are a lot in cold climates not cracked. It was the mfg. of the skin who at times changed the formula and Hunter stood good on the boat during warranty. Due to the issues though, they went back to fiberglass. I was not really a big fan of ACP.

Dave,

I'm sure there are. Like I said, I probably only get to see the cracked ones! I knew they rebranded and redesigned the boat in fiberglass. That would be a great little boat. I see they also have redesigned the current version (Hunter 22) to give a more traditional cabin profile. That looks like a nice boat as well. It pushed a lot of my fun buttons. The only think I do not like is the tiny flat side decks, with no foot grabs or lifeline. Its looks like a real bear to stay on when the breeze picks up and you want to hike!

I'm a huge fan of these smaller trailerables with lifting keels!

Crazy Dave Condon · Mar 25, 2015

boat was designed to sail faster flaTter . No need to hike out on the boat.

Jackdaw · Mar 25, 2015

Crazy Dave Condon said:
boat was designed to sail faster flaTter . No need to hike out on the boat.

Yes. Flatter is always faster. But hiking on ANY boat increases the righting moment, allows it to sail with more pressure in the rig at the same angle of heel.... thats faster.

Crazy Dave Condon · Mar 26, 2015

Jackdaw, not on this boat sir. Sailed it too much and it is unsafe to hike out. Been there and done it . You re correct about the righting moment but no need in this case due to the hull design. Anyway, I do not recommend hiking out and staying within a max 0f 14% heeling anyway.

Jackdaw · Mar 26, 2015

Crazy Dave Condon said:
Jackdaw, not on this boat sir. Sailed it too much and it is unsafe to hike out. Been there and done it . You re correct about the righting moment but no need in this case due to the hull design. Anyway, I do not recommend hiking out and staying within a max 0f 14% heeling anyway.

Dave,

I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with.

Like most boats, the 216 is faster is sailed flatter. On every boat, hiking will make the boat flatter, and therefore faster. That's true on the 216. I agree that is not easy to do on the 216; that was was my original point.

In that picture, the crew is trying to flatten the boat by hiking. If they can they will not have to ease their sails and that will be faster. If they cannot they will have to ease the sails... That will flatten the boat but also slow it.

I guarantee it, if two well-sailed 216s sail to windward in a breeze, all else being equal the crew of the boat that hikes will win every time.

That boat is being sailed hard. Hiking helps. The original 216 spec was for a day boat that was not designed to be sailed as hard (aka racing) so you are right, the cockpit was designed to be sat in, and not hiked out of. But hiking will always make it faster.

Crazy Dave Condon · Mar 26, 2015

Like I said been there and done it and those in the boat hiking out, well I left them behind. YOu can go fast thru sail control without hiking over. A friend of mine taught me that as he raced and won in the Mediterranian. Lets agree to disagree on this one.

Jackdaw · Mar 26, 2015

Crazy Dave Condon said:
Like I said been there and done it and those in the boat hiking out, well I left them behind. YOu can go fast thru sail control without hiking over. A friend of mine taught me that as he raced and won in the Mediterranian. Lets agree to disagree on this one.

OK Dave...

chuckwayne · Mar 26, 2015

as a former racer (and a 216 owner), I have to agree with Dave. Glenn's design brief for the 216 was a fast, fun family boat that did not require hiking to perform and he largely accomplished that. The guys in the picture need to learn how to trim their boat, and use the traveler to depower the main.

Jackdaw · Mar 26, 2015

chuckwayne said:
as a former racer (and a 216 owner), I have to agree with Dave. Glenn's design brief for the 216 was a fast, fun family boat that did not require hiking to perform and he largely accomplished that. The guys in the picture need to learn how to trim their boat, and use the traveler to depower the main.

OK good. I agreed to not disagree with Dave out of my respect for him.

With you, different. I don't think you're wrong. I know you're wrong.

On ANY boat, hiking is FASTER. On at least three levels.

Engineering/Science
The power of a sailboat comes from its rig. The limit of that power is the boat's ability to respond to the heeling force created by that pressure. That is done SOLELY by righting moment; The more righting moment you have, the more power you can let the rig generate. Hiking creates more righting moment. More Power. More speed. Always.

Personal
I sail and race a lot of boats. At a high level. Open 40s to 36.7 to J70s to H216s. I can see and feel the effect that crew's hiking have on boats speed, both from a seat-of-the-pants perspective, and from an instrumentation perspective. It ALWAYS makes the boat faster.

Empirical
Take a look at ANY boat racing to weather. Unless dis-allowed by class rules, fast crews ALWAYS hike. And they don't do it because its comfortable. They do it because it's FAST.

Glen designed the 216 to be sailed flat. Yes. But the KEY is HOW to MAKE IT FLAT. If you hike, it's flatter. That's FASTER. Sure you can ease and turn down. That's SLOWER VMG. This is so fundamental to sailing that I feel silly having to explain this.

BTW he also designed the Henderson 30 to be sailed flat. You should look at how world-class crews sail that THAT boat.

That picture I placed in my original post is an official HUNTER image. Hunter people on a hunter boat. And I assure you that they will say if they could make the boat flatter by hiking (like they were tying to do) it would have been faster.

If you want to disagree again let me know and I'll bring more evidence.

chuckwayne · Mar 26, 2015

Jackdaw,
since you know you're right, there's not much point in continuing this discussion.
I never said that a 216 wouldn't be faster in a race if the crew hiked, I said that the design intent was to not require hiking to sail fast. The 216 isn't intended to be a raceboat - someone who wants one should get a Melges or a viper

Jackdaw · Mar 26, 2015

chuckwayne said:
Jackdaw,
since you know you're right, there's not much point in continuing this discussion.
I never said that a 216 wouldn't be faster in a race if the crew hiked, I said that the design intent was to not require hiking to sail fast. The 216 isn't intended to be a raceboat - someone who wants one should get a Melges or a viper

Hang on. You agreed with Dave who said:

boat was designed to sail faster flaTter . No need to hike out on the boat.

That is wrong. Not matter if a boat is designed to be sailed flatter (what boat isnt??), it will be FASTER if you hike. Are you really disagreeing with that?

You said :

The guys in the picture need to learn how to trim their boat

Learn to trim? Bold statement. They are trimming JUST FINE. They know EXACTLY what they are trying to do. They are trying to make the boat go fast to windward by hiking.

All this stuff about hiking not being valuable is just wrong, and a dis-service to people who are trying to learn/understand how to make boats go fast. If you want to sit in your cockpit and just ease the sails and make slow progress that's fine, but don't confuse the real issue. Flattening the boat by hiking will be faster, FULL STOP.

Crazy Dave Condon · Mar 27, 2015

Jackdaw;

I am not a naval architect. I was self taught sailing in all kinds of weather on various boats but that also included privately racing against some of the best but learned a lot from a friend who competively raced in the Medterrainian and won. I applied some skills from my aviation days as well.

On the 216, this is not the first time hiking out has been suggested. To prove or disprove, on occasion, two of the 216's were taken out in various winds by me on one boat and the other with a crew of 2 or more in various winds. I sailed flatter than they did while they were trying to hike out. Every time I looked back, they were trailing further behind. I sailed faster, flatter with the use of sail control without heeling out which by the way I considered unsafe on the 216. I never heeled over 12-14 degrees either noting the pressure on the rudder all thru sail control

To say I am absolutely wrong, I guess my experience does not count at all. When I post to this forum, it is based on knowledge and experience as I sold, sailed, commissioned and repaired them.

Jackdaw · Mar 27, 2015

Crazy Dave Condon said:
Jackdaw;

I am not a naval architect. I was self taught sailing in all kinds of weather on various boats but that also included privately racing against some of the best but learned a lot from a friend who competively raced in the Medterrainian and won. I applied some skills from my aviation days as well.

On the 216, this is not the first time hiking out has been suggested. To prove or disprove, on occasion, two of the 216's were taken out in various winds by me on one boat and the other with a crew of 2 or more in various winds. I sailed flatter than they did while they were trying to hike out. Every time I looked back, they were trailing further behind. I sailed faster, flatter with the use of sail control without heeling out which by the way I considered unsafe on the 216. I never heeled over 12-14 degrees either noting the pressure on the rudder all thru sail control

To say I am absolutely wrong, I guess my experience does not count at all. When I post to this forum, it is based on knowledge and experience as I sold, sailed, commissioned and repaired them.

Dave,

I think its fair to say if you ask any naval architect, any world class racer, they will tell you that hiking will make ANY boat faster. The underlying principals are very simple, and universal. It increases the righting moment. That allows more power. And all else being equal, that is faster.

In you examples I can only assume all else was not equal. Perhaps you were just sailing better than the other boat.

Last night I discussed this with a friend at my club who when to the Olympics sailing the Sonar, a boat that was designed not to allow hiking. I asked his if the boat would be faster if they hiked anyway. He said 'of course, all boats do'. I'm quite sure Glen Henderson would say the same about the 216.

You can see this all the time on boats that were 'not designed to hike'. A Catalina 22 is not a race-boat and not really designed to race, but when it is raced at a high level, the crew hikes. Its simply faster.