PFD's who needs one... It is only a day sail, a milk run really...

Kermit · Dec 18, 2017

I wear mine at all times. Even after docking. There’s no shame in not sinking. And for the record I don’t understand why there’s even a debate. But apparently there is. I don’t debate. I just wear it.

Kermit · Dec 18, 2017

This happened in sight of our sailing club. Something tells me the firefighter’s daughter will be a champion of PFD use when she’s old enough.
http://m.wistv.com/story/36267267/update-body-of-missing-lake-murray-boater-found

leo310 · Dec 18, 2017

We CAN NOT leave the dock or anchor under any power with out checking the both or all on board have a PFD on, If not then we stay until its done. We also have a check list that we use and PFD is on 3 times (aviation thing).

Roland5048 · Dec 18, 2017

Kermit said:
I wear mine at all times. Even after docking. There’s no shame in not sinking. And for the record I don’t understand why there’s even a debate. But apparently there is. I don’t debate. I just wear it.

This topic has been debated ad nauseam. Take a stroll through the archives. Some do, some don't. Your choice unless dictated by law.

Stu Jackson · Dec 18, 2017

Treat the edge of your boat as the edge of a 500 foot cliff.

25yearslater · Dec 19, 2017

Wear it if you want but don't let it lull you into a false sense of security. http://buffalonews.com/2017/09/04/c...-olcott-marine-search-three-missing-kayakers/

Will Gilmore · Dec 19, 2017

One question the study asked was:
"Why not wear a lifejacket?"

don’t need a lifejacket if you can swim well.
Wearing lifejackets is not required if a boater is skilled
dont need to wear a lifejacket if within sight of shore
wearing lifejackets only necessary if the boat is moving

Lifesaving Society Facts:
In 2004, 410 people drowned in Canada, 130 were boating.
Cold Water-
60% drowned in water under 10 degrees C (50deg F)
34% drowned in water between 10 – 20 degrees C (50 - 68deg F)
LIFEJACKETS
Only 12% were properly wearing a lifejacket.
2% were improperly wearing a lifejacket.
DISTANCE FROM SHORE
43% were less than 2 metres from shore/safety *
66% were less than 15 metres from shore/safety* (1/3 of Canada's drowning were farther away from shore, those would be all boating related)
*shore, boat, dock, etc.
HOW THEY ENDED UP IN THE WATER
26% fell or were thrown overboard
48% were in a boat that capsized or was swamped (3/4s or 74% were boating related?)
SWIMMING ABILITY
Non-swimmer = 29%
Weak = 15%
Average = 12%
Strong = 10%
Not identified = 34%

The salient conclusion here is people on boats can die from drown, even if they know how to swim and/or wear a PFD. (Only 14% of deaths due to drowning were wearing a PFD. That's just over 1/7th [7 out of 50] of the 410 Canadian drownings in 2004 (57 drownings out of 410 were wearing PFDs. 353 were not).

leo310 said:
We also have a check list that we use and PFD is on 3 times (aviation thing).

My wife worked in healthcare for many years. They have adopted the aviation checklist practice, especially in the OR. It is unbelievable how long it took for such practices to become standard. Doctors, like technicians everywhere, tend to think they know best so improvement is unnecessary. In a world where knowledge is currency, it is hard to learn from someone else.
- Will (Dragonfly)

Scott T-Bird · Dec 19, 2017

The inflatable deck vests are pretty convenient to wear, I'll have to admit. I've worn it far more often during the past few years. On the other side of the coin, I really don't have any anxiety about death. It's going to happen. I'm old enough now that I don't really mind the idea that it could happen any time, so I certainly don't wear a pfd for fear of death. Besides, a hefty life insurance policy softens the blow, at least for another 10 years. I've never fully understood the desire to take precautions to the extreme. We can sit in our arm chairs if we really want to avoid drowning. But to come full circle, there really is no reason not to be cautious and aware of dangers. I'm pretty sure that I would be more likely to wear a pfd full time if I were on any other sailboat than mine. I would not want the captain/owner to think that I am uncaring about safety if the conditions away from the dock seem to warrant caution. I'm not wearing a pfd as I'm walking down the dock during a warm, sunny day, though (unless my hands are full and it's the only way to carry it).
If I were to be a guest on a boat where the rule is to wear a pfd, no exceptions, I would happily comply and not think any less of the people who desire that rule. If I were to be a guest on a boat where wearing a pfd is optional, I wouldn't think any less of the more relaxed attitude. Suppose you invited somebody on your boat and he/she showed up and said they don't feel comfortable unless you were wearing a pfd? My attitude would be to make my guest comfortable and wear the pfd. I don't have a problem with adapting to any situation where safety is a concern.

Will Gilmore · Dec 19, 2017

Very well said, Scott.
You show a lot of grace.

- Will (Dragonfly)

Scott T-Bird · Dec 19, 2017

On another note, there are a lot of things that don't add up about this story. The story indicated that the pelican hook failed on the lifeline. So, is this a case where the sailor was really not very cautious because he was relying on a lifeline? This goes to Stu's point ... act as if the edge of your boat is a cliff. What was he doing when his hook failed? Was he leaning out for some reason? Why did he lose his balance and why didn't he have a secure handhold? Who actually relies on a lifeline?
Secondly, he could swim 500 yards to a buoy but he couldn't swim to the boat? What was the other person on board doing that she couldn't stop the boat by simply turning up wind? It sounds like she was able to turn the boat around, since he did make an attempt to get on board when the stanchion bent. It's a small boat ... wasn't there a ladder? Sounds like a whole series of mistakes and errors.
Finally, if it was necessary to strip off clothes and swim to a buoy to avoid succumbing to hypothermia while in the water, I'm thinking that he would need to strip off a pfd so that swimming wouldn't be impeded. The lack of pfd didn't seem to be a problem in this event.
Lots of unexplained questions ...
In this case, a pfd would probably only been useful if he finally succumbed to hypothermia and the pdf would have made it easier to locate and recover the body. But I know that there is an argument that a pdf can keep you afloat and alive for a short while after you lose ability to swim.

Jackdaw · Dec 19, 2017

Like someone said, its a personal choice that no manner of scary stats (or even the law sometimes) will influence.

Even so at WYC, our Lake Superior fleet tries by making PFDs mandatory at the start and finish of races

You can take them off during the race if you want, but that requires action. And after we standardized on the very comfortable Spinlock Deckvests on Kestrel, crew left them on even when the boat did not have the 'PFD always' rule in effect. Progress!

This rule has a funny side effect; on hot days on many boats you have a scramble near the finish to put them back on. Last year a new boat to the fleet (Mumm 36) won a race and was also first to finish. They were celebrating when one of the crew looked around and realized that NO ONE had a PFD on. Oops.

Scott T-Bird · Dec 19, 2017

In cold water conditions (this event seemed to be in marginally cold water) wouldn't it be more prudent to wear a wetsuit or an immersion suit full time, rather than a pfd? Why don't we advocate for that?

Terry Cox · Dec 19, 2017

Almost lost my son of 35 last year when he and a friend were crabbing/fishing in a small aluminum skiff in Port Susan. Pots were still in the boat when his friend caught a fish while both were standing. When his friend lurched, it caused both to lose their balance and in the water they and everything else went. When my son landed in the water he had been standing amongst the pot line, which became wrapped around his foot. The pots are not that heavy, but enough to keep my fully clothed son from rising to the surface. He managed to get his knife loose and cut the line that was tangled in his foot so that he could rise to the surface. Neither were wearing PFDs. A nearby boater managed to get them both ashore a short distance away. Complacency will usually catch up to you regardless of the circumstances.

Jackdaw · Dec 19, 2017

Several years ago @cb32863 and I rescued a Flying Scott sailor who capsized and went into Lake Minnetonka in November. The water was COLD. Funny thing is, people do irrational things when trying to save property or minimize damage or effects, even in cold water. I think its adrenaline. By the time I ordered this guy out of the water, he was unable to help us pull him onto BlueJ.

Scott T-Bird · Dec 19, 2017

Jackdaw said:
Even so at WYC, our Lake Superior fleet tries by making PFDs mandatory at the start and finish of races

Anyplace where the water is in the 50's during the height of summer is a case where even 5 minutes of immersion can be life-threatening, I think. Go in the water, and you soon don't have strength to even climb out on a ladder. I can fully understand the need for pfd all the time.

Will Gilmore · Dec 19, 2017

Jackdaw said:
By the time I ordered this guy out of the water, he was unable to help us pull him onto BlueJ.

But you wouldn't have left him if you couldn't get him aboard because you didn't have a ladder.
- Will (Dragonfly)

capta · Dec 19, 2017

At what point do statistics become nothing more than a means to justify somebody's paycheck?
DISTANCE FROM SHORE
In 2004, [of the] 410 people drowned in Canada, 43% were less than 2 metres from shore/safety
Perhaps swimming lessons or parental supervision would have been a bit more important to those 43%! Or sobriety?

Jackdaw · Dec 19, 2017

Will Gilmore said:
But you wouldn't have left him if you couldn't get him aboard because you didn't have a ladder.

My point was that he was too weak to use the ladder, so we had to use our strength to pull him on.