LIPO BATTERIES

[CloudDiver]

I'm not by any means an expert but I educated myself on battery technologies while working in the solar industry, flying drones, and I've ridden an electric race bike; Just keep in mind when looking at any lithium battery chemistry, what causes 'Thermal Events' (The P.C. term Chevy used to describe their failures/fires in the Volt) is high rates of discharge and charging. Racers discharge batteries fast on the track, they get hot... On top of that everyone wants to quickly recharge their battery packs, which is especially relevant to electric cars (who wants to wait 3 hours at a highway charge point while the gas guzzlers fill up in 10 minutes?). I agree with many statements above that Li-Iron is more stable than Li-Po, but when it comes to causing fires it will be due to rapid charge or discharge, not the battery chemistry in and of itself. What I think is most important for marine house banks is higher charge cycles that @Daveinet mentioned.

 

[SG]

For me, the attraction is both the higher effective charge rates and the effective ability to get the “face” or listed capacity from the batteries.

Li Ion batteries are supposed maintain much nearer even voltage through almost all of their listed capacity. i.e., you have constant voltage. Since watt=amps x volts, you aren’t geting declining power as the voltage from lead cells drops.

Motors (refrigeration, water) and electronics are seeing even states.

Also, supposedly, the Li Ion batteries don’t imprint partial recharges.

 

[Daveinet]

... I agree with many statements above that Li-Iron is more stable than Li-Po, but when it comes to causing fires it will be due to rapid charge or discharge, not the battery chemistry in and of itself...

Actually the Li-Iron do not overheat in high stress conditions. That is something I did a ton of research on, when I was buying a self balancing scooter (hoverboard). Specifically when you look at the spec for a Samsung Li-Iron, they will survive a dead short without overheating. (bypassing the internal short circuit protection) Yes, the chemistry does make a difference in heat generation. Other Li-ion have been greatly improved for safety, but Li-iron specifically does not have the inherent overheating weakness that other Li-ion batteries do. Yes, they will get hot, but they are substantially different than other Li-ion batteries with regards to heat.

 

[pateco]

Anyone Tried these?


12V 110Ah 1750CCA Lithium Iron Phosphate Battery LiFePO4 for Auto Boat with BMS $680.99 Free Shipping

 

[Maine Sail]

Guys,

PLEASE, PLEASE,PLEASE be very careful with these stand alone "drop-in" LiFePO4 batteries unless you are powering a bass boat trolling motor.. There are many companies masquerading these Chinese batteries about like they are a simple drop-in for lead acid and this could not be further from the truth.

Any LiFePO4 (LFP) battery that has been properly designed for marine use, as a house bank, will have the ability to EXTERNALLY COMMUNICATE with the vessels charging and load bus to shut down charge equipment and loads with a warning then a proper shut down protocol BEFORE the battery open circuits itself.

I would only advise LFP "marine" batteries from legitimate players such as; OPE Li3 (Bruce Schwab/Lithionics), Mastervolt & Victron at this point..

Ask yourself these simple questions:

• How will the dinky little FET based internal BMS switch/contactor, in a "drop-in" LFP battery deal with high demand loads such as electric winches, bow thrusters, windlasses etc.?
• How will the dinky little FET based switches deal with large charging currents?
• What are the actual specifications on the internal sealed contactor for inrush/peak, 1 min, 5 min & continuous?
• What gauge wire is used internally from the end-boards to the + and - terminals of the battery? Hint: I have seen these literally de-solder themselves! How about a 100Ah LFP drop-in with 12GA wires from the end-boards/BMS to the pos & neg terminals internally!! D'oh!!
  
• How will your on-board system deal with a "BMS battery protection disconnect" for over cell temp, high voltage or low voltage?
• How will you know when a BMS disconnect is approaching? Hint: You DON'T!
  
• What will happen to your alternator or large inverter charger when the BMS decides to open circuit the battery from the rest of the vessel without warning? Hint: Load dumps KILL alternators and can also kill chargers!
• What will happen to your alternator when it is asked for full output nearly continuously?
• How do you program a "stop charge" point on your charging devices that can not get any sort of signal from the battery as to when this needs to occur? HINT: Lead acid charging equipment is "voltage regulated" not current regulated yet the "drop-in" makers expect a stop charge at or around 0.05C.
  
• How do you install a series-bank when any battery on the bus can open circuit with no warning taking out the entire bank? HINT: I have a consult client who learned this the hard way and hit a bridge abutment because one battery in the series bank went tits-up with zero advanced warning.
  
• At what rate is the Ah rating derived from? Are the cells rated at a 20 hour rate (like lead acid) or .3C, .5C or 1C rate?
  
• What will happen to the electronics on your loads buss when the battery open circuits without warning or proper shut down & the battery load dumps? Hint: Massive voltage transient to all your on-board devices!
  
• How will the LFP battery deal with "absorption duration"? Hint: LFP cells need to be charged, then charging must be DISCONTINUED. LFP batteries can not continue "absorbing", as lead acid does, for 1-5 hours. HINT: Constant voltage (CV) duration is one of the biggest murderers of LFP batteries. "Drop-ins" with a sealed non communicable BMS are simply a bad investment and the marketing of "drop-ins" is bordering on snake oil.
  
• How does a drop-in manufacturer use the BMS to prevent "over-absorbing" the batteries? Hint: They don't..
  
• How will the LFP battery deal with float charging? Hint: You DO NOT float LFP. A very expensive set of premium LFP prismatic cells were stored fully charged, at a resting 100% SOC, for a bit over 12 months and lost 11% of capacity just sitting there! This was NOT EVEN FLOATING!!
  
• How will your lead acid charging devices know when to STOP charging?
  
• LFP batteries can NOT BE absorption charged which means you hit your target voltage (13.8V to 14.0V is safer than the 14.2V to 14.6V some recommend) and stop charging at .05C or higher? HINT: They don't!!
  
• How will the manufacturer deal with warranty when you've over absorbed your "drop-in" batteries beyond the insane 14.2V - 14.6V and 0.05C charge recommendation? Do you even know what this means?
  
• When dockside and on shore charging what is your "storage" plan for the "drop-in" batteries. They should be stored between 40% SOC to about 60% SOC and never floated, unless of course you want to damage them.
  
• How will your insurer pay out on a claim dealing with "drop-in" LFP batteries if they don't meet the marine safety standards when the standard goes live in the next year or so?

I could go on-and on......

Please, if you don't know the answers or completely understand the above points you really should not be investing in "drop-in" LFP batteries, unless you want a big fat hole where your wallet used to be.. I have spent countless hours talking to these manufacturers at trade shows and by phone and not one of them can answer 50% of the technical questions I throw at them. Why? The actual design engineers speak Chinese and are in China and I don't speak Chinese. The companies you are buying these drop-ins from simply design a sticker and choose a case color. Some might even get to pick the internal cell brand or choose soldered or machine screw end boards but they don't have much control beyond that.

 

[pateco]

Guys,

PLEASE, PLEASE,PLEASE be very careful with these stand alone "drop-in" LiFePO4 batteries unless you are powering a bass boat trolling motor.. There are many companies masquerading these Chinese batteries about like they are a simple drop-in for lead acid and this could not be further from the truth.

Any LiFePO4 (LFP) battery that has been properly designed for marine use, as a house bank, will have the ability to EXTERNALLY COMMUNICATE with the vessels charging and load bus to shut down charge equipment and loads with a warning then a proper shut down protocol BEFORE the battery open circuits itself.

I would only advise LFP "marine" batteries from legitimate players such as; OPE Li3 (Bruce Schwab/Lithionics), Mastervolt & Victron at this point..

Ask yourself these simple questions:

• How will the dinky little FET based internal BMS switch/contactor, in a "drop-in" LFP battery deal with high demand loads such as electric winches, bow thrusters, windlasses etc.?
• How will the dinky little FET based switches deal with large charging currents?
• What are the actual specifications on the internal sealed contactor for inrush/peak, 1 min, 5 min & continuous?
• What gauge wire is used internally from the end-boards to the + and - terminals of the battery? Hint: I have seen these literally de-solder themselves! How about a 100Ah LFP drop-in with 12GA wires from the end-boards/BMS to the pos & neg terminals internally!! D'oh!!
  
• How will your on-board system deal with a "BMS battery protection disconnect" for over cell temp, high voltage or low voltage?
• How will you know when a BMS disconnect is approaching? Hint: You DON'T!
  
• What will happen to your alternator or large inverter charger when the BMS decides to open circuit the battery from the rest of the vessel without warning? Hint: Load dumps KILL alternators and can also kill chargers!
• What will happen to your alternator when it is asked for full output nearly continuously?
• How do you program a "stop charge" point on your charging devices that can not get any sort of signal from the battery as to when this needs to occur? HINT: Lead acid charging equipment is "voltage regulated" not current regulated yet the "drop-in" makers expect a stop charge at or around 0.05C.
  
• How do you install a series-bank when any battery on the bus can open circuit with no warning taking out the entire bank? HINT: I have a consult client who learned this the hard way and hit a bridge abutment because one battery in the series bank went tits-up with zero advanced warning.
  
• At what rate is the Ah rating derived from? Are the cells rated at a 20 hour rate (like lead acid) or .3C, .5C or 1C rate?
  
• What will happen to the electronics on your loads buss when the battery open circuits without warning or proper shut down & the battery load dumps? Hint: Massive voltage transient to all your on-board devices!
  
• How will the LFP battery deal with "absorption duration"? Hint: LFP cells need to be charged, then charging must be DISCONTINUED. LFP batteries can not continue "absorbing", as lead acid does, for 1-5 hours. HINT: Constant voltage (CV) duration is one of the biggest murderers of LFP batteries. "Drop-ins" with a sealed non communicable BMS are simply a bad investment and the marketing of "drop-ins" is bordering on snake oil.
  
• How does a drop-in manufacturer use the BMS to prevent "over-absorbing" the batteries? Hint: They don't..
  
• How will the LFP battery deal with float charging? Hint: You DO NOT float LFP. A very expensive set of premium LFP prismatic cells were stored fully charged, at a resting 100% SOC, for a bit over 12 months and lost 11% of capacity just sitting there! This was NOT EVEN FLOATING!!
  
• How will your lead acid charging devices know when to STOP charging?
  
• LFP batteries can NOT BE absorption charged which means you hit your target voltage (13.8V to 14.0V is safer than the 14.2V to 14.6V some recommend) and stop charging at .05C or higher? HINT: They don't!!
  
• How will the manufacturer deal with warranty when you've over absorbed your "drop-in" batteries beyond the insane 14.2V - 14.6V and 0.05C charge recommendation? Do you even know what this means?
  
• When dockside and on shore charging what is your "storage" plan for the "drop-in" batteries. They should be stored between 40% SOC to about 60% SOC and never floated, unless of course you want to damage them.
  
• How will your insurer pay out on a claim dealing with "drop-in" LFP batteries if they don't meet the marine safety standards when the standard goes live in the next year or so?

I could go on-and on......

Please, if you don't know the answers or completely understand the above points you really should not be investing in "drop-in" LFP batteries, unless you want a big fat hole where your wallet used to be.. I have spent countless hours talking to these manufacturers at trade shows and by phone and not one of them can answer 50% of the technical questions I throw at them. Why? The actual design engineers speak Chinese and are in China and I don't speak Chinese. The companies you are buying these drop-ins from simply design a sticker and choose a case color. Some might even get to pick the internal cell brand or choose soldered or machine screw end boards but they don't have much control beyond that.

Maine Sail,

Your excellent reply is exactly why I posted my question, as I and I expect many others have never worked with LiFePO4 batteries before. The E-bay vendor in question indicates that :

"9. This battery is an automobile power battery. If you need an energy storage battery, please contact us. Thanks."

What would they need to change so that this would be an acceptable battery for marine energy storage use?

 

[Maine Sail]

Maine Sail,

Your excellent reply is exactly why I posted my question, as I and I expect many others have never worked with LiFePO4 batteries before. The E-bay vendor in question indicates that :

"9. This battery is an automobile power battery. If you need an energy storage battery, please contact us. Thanks."

What would they need to change so that this would be an acceptable battery for marine energy storage use?

This is very simple: You don't buy any "drop-in" battery who's internal BMS can not communicate externally with the vessel loads & charge soruces and/or its occupants via warnings.

As I mentioned earlier, you buy well engineered marine LFP systems, not just a "marine" sticker. The three companies with the best track records would be: OPE Li3/Bruce Schwab/Lithionics, Mastervolt or Victron. In my opinion the OPELi3 system is currently the best system out there but Mastervolt and Victron are making good strides..

Feel free to start below with the research.

LiFePO4 Batteries on Boats

My background on this is wide and deep. I have even consulted and helped design systems for some of the marine industries biggest guru's. I have been experimenting, testing, well over 2000+ hours of marine specific testing including over charge, under charge, puncture, CV duration, short circuit, float, storage, over-current protection etc.), system design and consulting over the last 8 years. I spent two years researching LFP well before I even purchased some small cylindrical cells to begin actual testing with.

I'm also heavily involved in marine lithium standards development. My advice above is not seat of the pants advice, I have destroyed THOUSANDS of dollars of LFP batteries, to help the marine community protect themselves and their investment.

At this point, and until the standard is live, I have stopped LFP consulting unless the boat is local to me. I am also not currently building custom packs and am only installing the OPE/Li3 system. Perhaps a Mastervolt LFP system if someone really begged & pleaded.

Ask yourself why you're not seeing huge players/manufacturers such as JCI, US Battery, Trojan, East Penn, Lifeline, Northstar, Enersys etc. get into the LFP game yet? Many of them have been working on it, some for a long time, but unless you invest in a complete "LFP engineered system" it is not prime-time ready to be sold as a "drop-in" battery, unless you're an opportunist willing to slap your name on a Chinese "drop-in" under engineered for the purpose battery....

 

[Hayden Watson]

Maine Sail you are killing us! We read your reports on how amazingly your 400amp bank is working and that after a bunch of full hi-amp cycles it is stronger than when you first built it and then tell us that we mere mortal sailors can't have one!

 

[Maine Sail]

Maine Sail you are killing us! We read your reports on how amazingly your 400amp bank is working and that after a bunch of full hi-amp cycles it is stronger than when you first built it and then tell us that we mere mortal sailors can't have one!

You can certainly have them, no one is holding you back.

I however believe in safety, and I care about your wallet. I'm also the guy getting the emails from folks have ruined thousands of dollars in batteries because they essentially read what they wanted to hear eg; "drop-ins are great" or followed some fan-boy advice, "you don't need a BMS", "go ahead and float its fine" etc.. For far too many LFP experimenters it has stung them in the arse in a huge way.

While I am a huge proponent of LFP house banks, done correctly & safely, I will not mislead anyone on what LFP is and how to do it safely for both your wallet and vessel. The absolute biggest hurdle for most LFP converts is in losing the lead acid mentality. I do believe that one day a drop-in battery can work, but in order to do that safely and get your money's worth, it must be able to communicate externally and the system design, implementation & safety parameters need to be done correctly. The closest we have to a "drop-in" today, that is what I consider a legitimate marine LFP system is the OPE-Li3 system

If you take the time to study it, and implement it correctly, you can have a good system. If you're considering today's non-communicable LFP "drop-ins" I would suggest you've simply not studied or read enough to implement a safe LFP house bank system that you will get your money back out of..

Unfortunately most boat owners don't, won't or refuse to accept the costs to do it correctly, hence why I, and others, have stopped any long distance LFP consulting. Once the ABYC standard is out I may go back to custom built packs but until then I won't and I will let Mastervolt, Victron or OPE Li3 take that liability..

I do have a lot of my consulting work out there, and it is working fine, but most of those builds were by very competent EE's, or guys like Stan Honey, who had a very good idea of what they were getting into.

There is a reason so few of us in the field are left doing consulting or design work as well as a real slimming of cell availability and BMS manufacturers who make a BMS suitable for a marine application. I know Dimitri of CPA / House Power BMS stopped selling his BMS for similar reasons I stopped long distance consults, folks trying to cut corners. Heck Even one of the best in the industry bowed out of the "retail" marine LFP business last year, Genasun. Alex is still doing Li work only now for the Government where the design parameters are followed to a T...

I am not trying to stop anyone from going LFP I just prefer to see them get their moneys worth not get stuck with some poorly designed product for the marine market..