How Much Heel?

[Bill Roosa]

I suspect that racing boats are heeled because they know that they are on a racing boat with racing sails. If you massively over canvas a boat by putting a longer mast and boom and bow spirit on it with corresponding sails you can go faster even with the added drag and side slip. There is no replacement for more canvas if you want to go fast. I'd also note that they are ALL THE TIME trying to get the boat to sail upright by using rail meat and swinging keels etc.

 

[jon hansen]

having this discussion is great. means we all simply want to understand whats best. i have always been searching for what is best and WHY its best.

 

[jon hansen]

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3433868-high-performance-sailing

 

[jon hansen]

all my answers came out of this book. all the experimentation we are curious about, frank did. you want all the correct answers to how to sail a boat across the surface of any body of water. read this book. boat plus wind. its all here. frank died a little while ago. his kids are still setting the pace. this is what olympians read and teach.
i've passed out 50 copies to friends and crew. i've read and reread many time.

easy to understand, easy to reference.

 

[jon hansen]

more sail !!!!!! don't forget a boomkin

 

[jon hansen]

gary jobson was a kid once. frank taught him alot.

 

[jon hansen]

don't think this book is only for racers, its not. its for anyone who wants to sail their boat well. and teaches you why.

 

[jon hansen]

hull shapes, sail shapes, foils, load placement, winds on deck, winds aloft, rig tuning, how and why wind crosses the surface of the earth, how hulls go thru the water, hull speed and beyond, rig tuning, and most of all, how to correlate all this info while at the helm on a lumpy day with a beautiful woman in a bikini sipping wine next to you.

 

[jon hansen]

again, this is not racers only reading. if you read only one book on sailing, this is it. when someone at the club says, " down in the puffs and up up in the lulls" you understand why as opposed to lou told us to and lou wins alot

 

[jon hansen]

fun facts: after all this, one of my boats does sail faster in light wind by intentionally heeling it over. its an A scow. melges built. it is flat bottomed vessel, we heel it to reduce wetted surface. its a totally different animal


also, in very light wind we heel the keel boats so to help the sails maintain foil shape when the weight of the sail pulls it down flat

never had two sails that were the same

 

[jssailem]

SG. sg sg.... You ask a redundant question then show an image of a uniquely designed boat (Clipper 70) with twin rudders, a special hull shape, and offer that as support for your suggestions on heeling of a boat for speed. -Please explain what all the sailors on the Clipper 70 sitting on the rail, as meat, are trying to do? FLATTEN THE BOAT.

From your perspective, sailing a J Boat 160 (a beautiful boat by the way), displacing 31,200 lbs, 14 ft beam, 12,000 lbs ballast, 1376 sqft Sail Area, 47.5 foot waterline and a displacement hull speed of 9.24 knts are likely lucky to heel the boat in anything less than 15 knots of wind and full sails flying. So sure you probably think your going fast when heeled.

KZ has a Catalina 310 displacing 10,300lbs, 11.5 ft beam, 4,000 lbs ballast, 493 sqft Sail Area, 26.5 foot waterline and a displacement hull speed of 6.9 knts. In the most favorable conditions he needs to be sailing on an aft beam reach with a flat boat and a clean bottom to do the 6 plus knots. Heeling this boat beyond 15 degrees with a 4'10" draft means the boat is sliding to the lee. Not speeding up.

Put a small displacement boat on a heel greater than 15 degrees and you will be fighting to maintain helm (creating drag). Going slower not faster... But it is fun to run the water along the lee rail feeling the boat on the edge of broaching or rounding up.

When the sailors of small to medium size cruiser/racer boats suggest "keep her flat for speed" there is relevance in this response.

To KZ. you should experiment with your boat. In a 5 knot breeze you will be lucky to get 2 knots of SpeedOverWater. In 10 knots you may approach the 5 to 6 knot range on a beam reach, and 4 - 5 hauled in tight to the wind. But the more you heel and the tighter you try to sail to the wind you may find that the boat goes slower, heels more and has a tendency to round up as your rudder comes out of the water.

Have fun out there.

 

[SG]

Many years ago I had a Pearson 35 - Hull #473, for 6 years; and. then a Sabre 42 - Hull 34, for 11 years; and, our J/Boat now, for going on 19 years, .

The principles are the same for a Cal 30 or tricked-out racer -- it's just a question of degree. On the wind, the boat must heel to some extent to move forward. It won't stay flat unless their isn't any wind or velocity. In 7-8 knots of true wind, the apparent wind will get up above 10-12 knots on most boats that can move with the right sails. Then the boat SHOULD heel a bit. It's just a question of balance. OFF THE WIND IS A DIFFERENT STORY.

Flatter is a relative thing. A Mason 42 of old (a relatively heavy, slower than it looks, beauty) wouldn't move into the wind until it was at about 10-12 degrees of heel. Many people found it amazingly "tender". The ultra lights, even with their relatively deep keels and bulb ballasts deep down also need to heel to move.

On our J/Boat, in 10-ish knots of true wind, when you're going 8 knots upwind, you have 14 knots of apparent wind (or so). The boat doesn't sit-up straight. In a seaway, its comfortable (certainly stable), but it's not "flat" and straight-up going to wind. On faster boats, speed and apparent wind affect one another to change the "true" wind references.

The biggest difference is when you crank the boat off from close-hauled to a reach. Then the heel should moderate and the speed should really pick-up. When you're on a beam reach, things do change a lot until the wind gets powered up.

P.S. - We have three working sails: The main, a working jib, and (an about) 2,000 SF asymmetrical spinnaker. I don't count the storm trysail and jib, which I've never had up in "anger". We didn't get a 130% jib because the effective "range" of the sail is so narrow. On the wind, above 7 or 8 knots, the boat moves for our purposes. On my prior boats, we had 150 and 130% headsails plus the working jib (100%) because they needed them to sail in lighter air.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Well, just to throw a monkey wrench into the discussion, isn't it rather obvious that sailing a boat flat isn't necessarily faster? What if you flatten out the heel angle by reducing sail? That would be a pretty silly response if you are sailing in light to moderate wind, wouldn't it? If I was sailing my boat in 10 knot wind with full mainsail and my 140% genoa on an upwind beat and sailing at 15 degree heel and have all crew weight shifted to the windward side, I guarantee you that my boat (and KZ's Catalina, for that matter), would be sailing faster on the same heading than I would be if I reefed the mainsail and reduced headsail area down to 100% just to achieve 5 degree heel or less. Flattening the boat by shifting weight to the windward side (or using a canting keel) is good for speed, obviously. Worrying about your angle of heel and shortening canvas, in response, would be nonsense. SG is right to the extent that a boat that is sailing upwind in a moderate wind is going to heel. If the objective is to be fast, then the amount of canvas has to be considered more importantly than the angle of heel. Just being flat in the water isn't going to improve speed if the boat is under-canvased.

 

[LeoLambert310]

What we had noticed is our 310 heels 10-15 degs depending on wind speed anymore than 15 degs we loose speed. What we have is 110 genoa and furling main we don't reef unless wind over 15kts.

 

[Alansails]

Nice discussion, lots of great information from many view points, we have a 135% headsail and a hoistable main
our boat came with a 135 and our sailmaker when we bought a new North Headsail said for where we sail, Lake Erie, and the potential conditions we sail in most of the time, we bought a 135, and we do sail at a Heel but not 15 degrees, I would guess, remembering from last year because our boat just splashed and we have not sailed it yet, we are generally less than 10 degrees.

 

[Jackdaw]

It really depends.

Upwind, all boats will have optimal heel. All. In that breeze probably 7 degrees. Polars will show this.

In light air, healing on reaching points of sail can help. Heeling will for sure extend the waterline. The change of wetted surface area will depend on the hull form. On wide boats like BlueJ, heeling for sure does reduce it.

Downwind, mostly straight up.

In theory, a vertical keel will perform best hydrodynamicly. But the real-life interaction between keel and rig rarely allow that to work out.

 

[justsomeguy]

Polaris will show this.

It's a pretty bright star, but not that bright.

 

[Jackdaw]

For a given amount of sail area, a non-overlapping rig will always be faster.

It's why all modern race boats are life this.

That old 'overlapper faster' story dealt with UNRATED sail area. In the old rating days, boats were only rated on the sail area of the JIPE numbers of the rig. Any wonder why boats from the 60s and 70s had tiny mains and huge headsails? Do the math.

 

[jon hansen]

It's a pretty bright star, but not that bright.

+1

 

[KZW]

I appreciate all the responses and discussion.

My take is:
On my C-310:
- Hard on the wind, more than 5 degrees of heel but less than 10 degrees heel, if I have sufficient crew weight on the rail for the breeze.
- Off the wind, straight up

I note one really important point on this:
"with a beautiful woman in a bikini sipping wine next to you"

While such an item has appeal, I think the Admiral would express her disapproval - with the end result that I loose the boat, house, and all my other stuff.