head sea cocks

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Well...I'm not sure it makes any sense to connect that seacock to the holding tank...'cuz the nearest waters in which it would be legal to dump a tank are at least 3 miles due east of the barrier islands off the Atlantic side of the eastern shore. That's a looooooooooong way to go to dump a tank! If offshore cruising is in your future plans, a y-valve in the toilet discharge line that would let you flush directly overboard whiile outside the "3 mile limit" makes a lot more sense than being able to dump a tank.

 

[kloudie1]

H-34 Head Plumbing

These guys have Marelon and bronze too:
http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=4230
The original H-34 plumbing : Waste left toilet and directly into top fitting on tank. Outlet fitting went to a tee where horizontal continued to deck pump-out.. (red hose in picture if I can get one o post today). Other leg of tee goes through Gusher hand pump, up inside cabinet to a vented loop just under the deck. Other side of loop goes down, aft through the bulkhead stringer and loops over the tank top as yours does, before going out through the valve. I left mine original because it works for me..

 

[H3newdog]

Agreed, that is the current setup. With the addition of two Y valves and a gusher pump one would have the ability to empty the tank without having to go in for a pumpout when cruising.

 

[H3newdog]

kloudie1, many thanks for the explanation and picture. That is not the way I found mine. From toilet to Y valve which directed to top of tank or vented loop that went overboard. This is the part I couldn't understand - how was the toilet pump supposed to push that volume up and over the vented loop. I don't have the extra holes in the liner for all the pipes in your picture so I have to wonder if we have different plumbing. Mine is '83 hull#68

 

[H3newdog]

kloudie1, thanks for the link, I like the low profile of that one. I also like the setup in your picture. As I see it your setup requires everything to go into the tank then either pumped out or manual pump overboard. This requires a decent seal on the deck fitting as well I presume. I'll wait to get Peggy's book to see if there are any other piping suggestions before I decide what to put back.

 

[JamesG161]

You guys are jumping to H2S as the culprit. One way to tell is to make a 4 water to 1 Muratic Acid (HCl) mix and paint brush it on the corrosion. If it is FeS (iron sulfide or CuS2 copper) then the dilute acid should....

FeS + 2 HCl → FeCl2 + H2S

H2S stinks like rotten eggs.

The painting may remove enough of the corrosion to allow the valve packing to be removed and perhaps replaced until you can fully change the valve.

It would take YEARS of tank vent to cause that corrosion.

You can "weld" you tank by filling it with water to expand it, grinding a grove between the two part and use good ole 5200 to bond them.

Jim....

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

This is the part I couldn't understand - how was the toilet pump supposed to push that volume up and over the vented loop.

Any toilet--manual or electric--that's working anywhere near factory spec can move bowl contents at least 4 vertical feet or 6 linear feet, even in the dry mode.The owners manual for your toilet--which, btw, is a Raritan PH II PH II Owner’s Manual
includes a drawing showing the correct location for both intake and discharge vented loops...which, on most sailboats, would be 2-3' above the bowl...a "walk in the park" for any well maintained toilet.

 

[Mike Culik]

New Dog
The easy way to remove the old valves is to take a 41/2 grinder to the mushroom head on the outside of the hull. Then you can simply push them in for removal. It took me less than 10 minutes to remove the four on my H31

 

[H3newdog]

I think I'll pass on repairing the tank

James, there's no doubt in my mind that the black on the seacocks is due to the tank leak, the severely rotted flooring attests to the longevity of the leak.
Ok Peggy, I'll take your word for the lift ability of the pump. Thanks for confirming the ID of the PHII and the link. Apparently the PDF manual I have is an abbreviated version sans piping diagram.

 

[H3newdog]

Great idea Mike that sounds a lot better than cutting the nut off inside. Did you have to cool it down to protect the fiberglass?

 

[splax]

really?

i doubt those fittings are metal, for starters ball valves only come in bronze or stainless steel. my bet would be bronze because as i said hydrogen sulfide will eat away at bronze, stainless steel aswell but mostly staining.

i would check the holding tank vent and make sure it leaves the boat the thru hull for this should be plastic no metal/bronze/ss fittins on the vent line from the black water tank

i personally would not relocate those thru hulls, they seem fine to me. i would replace them though. relocating them is a huge job.

well, last I checked bronze and stainless steel are metal alloys. be careful about those knee-jerk reaction posts. they stay on display for quite a while.

 

[splax]

I had a problem with black plastic fittings in the head discharge and engine seawater intake. They were degraded in both the threads and structural integrity (they would bend) When I replaced my through-hulls I used a marine rated translucent white plastic elbow on the through-hull ball valve for the head over board discharge.

 

[H3newdog]

splax, any idea what caused the plastic to degrade? At this point I'm leaning to a true thruhull as it has a much lower profile and I think this will shorten the hose length. I am also looking at Marlon that MS recommends.

 

[splax]

I think they were cheap shore plumbing plastic fittings that were "encouraged" to fit/work in the sailboat application, perhaps because they were what was available. I don't really know.

 

[H3newdog]

Well that's a bit scary.

 

[H3newdog]

My current head piping

The Y valve comes off the toilet discharge. I looked at the PHII manual and it shows a different location for the Y valve.

 

[H3newdog]

Plans for new piping

Utilizing ideas from this site. Does anyone see any problems with having all waste go to tank then being able to pump overboard thru seacock or normal deck pump out. This way I can leave the waste seacock closed when not actively pumping tank out. This configuration allows for less pumping up thru the vent loop to go overboard along with having the option to empty tank at sea.

 

[splax]

Well, it appears to be the original configuration, which works for me. The discharge seacock remains closed with handle removed per regulations, but remains an option for emptying the tank should I get to sea more than 3 miles off shore. The holding tank is a convenience which I try not to use unless absolutely necessary. Shore side facilities are usually more user friendly. Ensure vacuum breakers are working to prevent tank collapse from pump-out. The 3/4" through-hull is more than sufficient for flushing supply. I am not sure why you would want to make it larger.
I am thinking about eventually changing the manual discharge pump to an electric, since it is awkward to operate, but the only use would be if I ever get off shore.

 

[H3newdog]

Splax, not sure which diagram you're referring to when you mention "original configuration", also what vacuum breakers are you referring to to "prevent tank collapse during pump out"? I only know of the one on top of the vented loop but shouldn't the tank vent be adequate during pump out?

the larger vent size along with the additional vent on the other side was a recommendation from a different post commented by the Headmistress.

 

[JamesG161]

Utilizing ideas from this site. Does anyone see any problems with having all waste go to tank then being able to pump overboard thru seacock or normal deck pump out.

The high point vent is to let air IN. The tank vent is to let air IN and OUT.

They serve different purposes. Making the vents a closed loop will not work.

The size of the tank vent IN is done by the outflow of liquid by the Macerator pump/dock pump.

Simple view is that 5 gpm black water out... you need 5 GPM of air flow INTO the hold tank to balance tank pressure.

The head pump to the hold tank is normally so much smaller flow, it is not controlling pressure vent sizing.

The high point siphon break is only needed to prevent back flow of sea or hold tank (depending on how you pipe it) to head.

My high point is on the Head pump and not the macerator pump. You will pump black water into boat if the siphon break fails.

Tip: To stop any siphon with out the vent, close your exit valve/seacock and wait a few minutes. Siphoning is a dynamic or moving thing. No flow... no siphon!

Jim...

PS: Your tank vent though hull should always be AWL, even when heeled over. I back flush my 3/4" tank vent twice a year with shore water hose to confirm no insect blockage. Its location should not be near the cockpit when someone uses the head peweeeeehhhh.:cussing: