Handling Heel in a Catalina 22 Swing Keel

Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Ok learning something new here, I was mistaken in assuming that prebend and rake were the same thing. Being that they are different and that backstay tension does not affect the overall rake of the mast as that is set by the forestay then more to @Gene Neill question how and what does the back stay tension do? It seems that although it is adding tension to the forestay it is also adding a slight bit of stretch as well. Wouldn't that affect rake? I have noticed better performance by loosening the backstay down wind and tightening it upwind and so I am just trying to understand how all this works in theory / mechanics.

Is the increased performance driven by the draft alone and the forestay cable tensions but has no stretch?
Again, backstay effects the shape of the luff of the headsail (via headstay sag), that effects overall sail shape.

Adding tension to the forestay will create stretch there yes, but the wire that is pulling it stretches too! net effect zero. The mast head does not move.

Back to our first point, loosening the backstay adds forestay sag and deepens the headsail shape. Thats good for off/downwind sailing. A good move.
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,081
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
Being that they are different and that backstay tension does not affect the overall rake of the mast as that is set by the forestay then more to @Gene Neill question how and what does the back stay tension do?
I beg to differ a little with JD's comment. Certainly, rake is adjusted with the forestay length. Remember rake is typically set with the top of the mast leaning slightly back while nothing is loaded, so the backstay can be completely slack when you are setting rake.
But when you are sailing and the wind strengthens, what is preventing the top of the mast from moving forward and causing the head stay to sag? Well, of course swept back shrouds and some leech tension on the mainsail may be doing something ... but what you really need is a backstay to directly oppose the head stay from becoming slack. That's what it is for. Now consider that the headsail is typically larger in sail area than your main sail (certainly as you use a 150% genoa!). You need that backstay tension to bring the top of the mast back so that the rake returns to normal and flattens the luff of your headsail. So as your head sail loads up as the wind increases, the back stay certainly does affect rake.
 
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Oct 26, 2008
6,081
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
Adding tension to the forestay will create stretch there yes, but the wire that is pulling it stretches too! net effect zero. The mast head does not move.
Ok, so I see the point that stretch in the stays is also a consideration and I agree that the amount of movement at the top of the mast (either forward or back) may be extremely limited, I totally agree that the point of increased tension in both the head stay and the back stay (which can only be adjusted by the back stay while sailing), when the wind increases, is to maintain normal head stay sag and mast rake, regardless of the wind strength.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
I beg to differ a little with JD's comment. Certainly, rake is adjusted with the forestay length. Remember rake is typically set with the top of the mast leaning slightly back while nothing is loaded, so the backstay can be completely slack when you are setting rake.
But when you are sailing and the wind strengthens, what is preventing the top of the mast from moving forward and causing the head stay to sag? Well, of course swept back shrouds and some leech tension on the mainsail may be doing something ... but what you really need is a backstay to directly oppose the head stay from becoming slack. That's what it is for. Now consider that the headsail is typically larger in sail area than your main sail (certainly as you use a 150% genoa!). You need that backstay tension to bring the top of the mast back so that the rake returns to normal and flattens the luff of your headsail. So as your head sail loads up as the wind increases, the back stay certainly does affect rake.
I see what you are saying, but my point was this. Rake is a STATIC rig setting. Its determined by the length of your forestay, also a static setting. Adjustable backstays will effect dynamic rig tune for sure.
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,081
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
Yes, I agree completely with your last statement. I think that there are so many dynamic forces on any sailboat, that it is almost impossible for two people to have exactly the same perceptions and draw exactly the same conclusions regarding any particular dynamic.
 
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Sep 15, 2016
799
Catalina 22 Minnesota
Wow my head almost hurts.

Thanks fellas for the explanation I think I understand both of your arguments and I now understand the rake vs bend so much better. This is why I like this forum lots of people smarter than I am from whom I can glean great information.

Now for something to encourage us toward spring and illustrate the almost page of the thread now devoted to the backstay! To the OP, with time we all improve and heal can be managed through a variety of factors. Don't give up or become overwhelmed just Learn all you can and go sailing!

IMG_3154.JPG
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Wow my head almost hurts.
I tried to keep it simple: so net-net:

Rake: Static. Use your forestay at its set length. Ask other C22 owners if any adjustments can be made, and what they use. If the boat sails upwind with just a touch of weatherhelm, you're good.

Pre-bend: Static on a C22. Ask other C22 owners, but I'm guessing simply straight up. Add a touch of pre-bend if your mast pumps or if your otherwise new/good mainsail has a deeper than expected draft in the middle 1/3.

Backstay: Dynamic. Use to tension forestay to control sag and headsail shape. Upwind:Less for 4-10 knots, more for 0-4, even more for 10+. Downwind, ease to taste.
 
Apr 21, 2015
127
Catalina 22 Sport #15582 Indianapolis
Ok learning something new here, I was mistaken in assuming that prebend and rake were the same thing. Being that they are different and that backstay tension does not affect the overall rake of the mast as that is set by the forestay then more to @Gene Neill question how and what does the back stay tension do? It seems that although it is adding tension to the forestay it is also adding a slight bit of stretch as well. Wouldn't that affect rake? I have noticed better performance by loosening the backstay down wind and tightening it upwind and so I am just trying to understand how all this works in theory / mechanics.

Is the increased performance driven by the draft alone and the forestay cable tensions but has no stretch?
When racing, I always use my the adjustable backstay on my Catalina 22 Sport to adjust rake and bend. The Catalina 22 actually performs better with a slightly loose forestay and you need to tighten it up as the wind speed picks up. I make the backstay snug when sailing to windward in heavy wind, and pretty much no backstay in light wind. The backstay is also loose going downwind, allowing the mast to rake forward. See past articles in MainBrace and C22 Tech Manual about this topic. Good luck! p.s. Don't worry about theory...the best sources are the sailors who actually race these boats year after year and kick-butt in Class and PHRF races. If possible, you need to attend a C22 National Regatta, either to race or to watch, and see what the fastest guys in these boats are doing. Made a big difference for me.
 
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Sep 15, 2016
799
Catalina 22 Minnesota
Rich I would love to attend nationals and am looking forward to their return to the Midwest in 2019.

As for the theory stuff it's just fun to know and helps pass the time on an otherwise snowy spring. Your tuning guides in the techmanual and the mainbrac articles are gold and my go to location for the practicality of setting up the boat. Jackdaw's comments though simply help me visualize in my head what should be going on with the rig.

I can't wait for spring and neither can my crew. Let the racing begin!

End of thread hijack. Sorry @markcc13
 
Aug 22, 2017
1,609
Hunter 26.5 West Palm Beach
Adding tension to the forestay will create stretch there yes, but the wire that is pulling it stretches too! net effect zero. The mast head does not move.
I think maybe yes & maybe no, depending on the individual boat. The angles of the two stays relative to the mast may be different, which would cause a difference in the Cartesian plane stress components on the two stays. The two stays may be made of different diameter materials, which would change the amount of stretch per unit of strain.
 
Aug 1, 2011
3,972
Catalina 270 255 Wabamun. Welcome to the marina
The two stays may be made of different diameter materials, which would change the amount of stretch per unit of strain.
Really? Is there a formula for boatspeed by unit of strain? While yer' figuring that out, we'll be setting up for the next mark.
 
Oct 19, 2017
7,746
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
I think maybe yes & maybe no, depending on the individual boat. The angles of the two stays relative to the mast may be different, which would cause a difference in the Cartesian plane stress components on the two stays. The two stays may be made of different diameter materials, which would change the amount of stretch per unit of strain.
Rake would change no matter what the difference in stay size because we are talking about increasing tension by shortening the back stay so, JD is correct in that both back and fore stay tension would equal each other but the forestay would get pulled longer by the shortening of the backstay. However, the change in length is in mm along the backstay. Also, don't forget, the conditions under which this is done would include more pressure along the forestay from the wind on the staysail. This actually pulls the rake forward so what you are effectively doing is returning your rake to normal.

- Will (Dragonfly)
 
Oct 19, 2017
7,746
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
She says she likes sailing but it is mainly the cruising lifestyle, i.e. being on the water, enjoying the weather, having a nice cold drink and relaxing. I am similar and can appreciate and respect that.
Mark, in answer to your original post, I would suggest, among the above improvements to performance a set of new sails may bring, you also pick your angle to the wind for comfort rather than destination and speed. If you are out for a relaxing day of sailing and maybe some beach picnicking, take your time and tack on an angle to the wind that decreases your sail's heeling force. I know there are times when you just have to point her towards the wind to get where you are going or to avoid an obstacle, but minimize those times by taking the less direct route. We are all critical when we watch another sailor letting their boat luff, but hey, you know how to do it right and you know why you are not going for efficiency, so why worry about what other people think and sail your boat the way you need to so you have more fun.

By the way, I can think of no better solution than the excellent suggestion of putting your wife at the helm and teaching her more about controlling the boat. You might be surprised at her change in attitude around heeling and the thrill of sailing on the edge. You might suddenly find yourself crewing for her in a race or two. Or, she will just feel better about being able to have immediate control to do something about the uncomfortable angle.

I am lucky that my wife has great trust in me on a sailboat, but I find that while she understands we are not going to fall over, her reaction to my choices are sometimes less than demonstrative of faith. When my father is the captain, she is so relaxed, I think he could sail the boat with the spreaders underwater and she would still feel safe.

-Will (Dragonfly)
 
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Jun 5, 2014
503
ODay Mariner Guntersville
By the way, I can think of no better solution than the excellent suggestion of putting your wife at the helm and teaching her more about controlling the boat.
her reaction to my choices are sometimes less than demonstrative of faith. When my father is the captain, she is so relaxed, I think he could sail the boat with the spreaders underwater and she would still feel safe.
My experience with women, while statistically insignificant, is remarkably consistent in these two phenomena:

1) She (meaning any woman that I've had sex with) will not accept instruction from me unless I have amply demonstrated my expertise. In this example, when I have her take the tiller, she will be equally or more nervous, if I have not previously proven that I have 100% control of the boat, 100% of the time. Based on the fact that the boat has heeled while I was steering has already convinced her that: a) I don't know how to control the boat 100%, or b) I do know how to control the boat 100% and I am an a-hole for tipping the boat to the point where she got afraid.

2) She will accept instruction from some random bloke that she had not ever even seen before, even if it is the exact same instruction that she rejected when I offered it. Conversely, everybody (including women) thinks that I am a great teacher, except whichever woman I happen to be romantically involved with. It's not just me; I have noticed this phenomenon in all romantic couples who have passed through my corner of the time-space continuum. I have no idea why it's true; I've just learned to accept it.

The moral of the story is: If you want to have fun sailing with a woman, have other people teach her how to sail.
 
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Sep 20, 2014
1,320
Rob Legg RL24 Chain O'Lakes
JWING; Familiarity breeds contempt. A prophet is never respected in his own country. An artist is never famous until they are dead.

One thing I hope does not get lost in this discussion is the real reason the thread went off track. The first point I made was about sail twist. If the OP is not inducing twist, the gusts will be much worse.
 
Aug 22, 2017
1,609
Hunter 26.5 West Palm Beach
Really? Is there a formula for boatspeed by unit of strain? While yer' figuring that out, we'll be setting up for the next mark.
I was commenting on Jack's statement about the mast head not being moved. I was not commenting on boat speed.

I normally sail "by the seat of my pants" & don't make a habit of doing complex calculations before tacking.

There are certain boats, like stars, where mast rake is tuned during races & has been known to make a significant difference in the outcome of the race.
 
Aug 22, 2017
1,609
Hunter 26.5 West Palm Beach
Rake would change no matter what the difference in stay size because we are talking about increasing tension by shortening the back stay so, JD is correct in that both back and fore stay tension would equal each other but the forestay would get pulled longer by the shortening of the backstay. However, the change in length is in mm along the backstay. Also, don't forget, the conditions under which this is done would include more pressure along the forestay from the wind on the staysail. This actually pulls the rake forward so what you are effectively doing is returning your rake to normal.

- Will (Dragonfly)
Perhaps I was misunderstanding Jack's original statement. I was understanding him to say that when tightening the backstay, the mast head does not move. I was commenting on two contributing factors that would likely cause a different outcome.

Also, backstay & forestay tension will only be equal if the two stays are at equal angles to the mast. If the angles are different, the stay with the smaller angle will be under more tension. The x components of the two tensions will be the same (excluding sail loading), but the y components will be different if the angles are different. That was the basis for my Cartesian plane reference.
 
Jun 25, 2004
1,108
Corsair F24 Mk1 003 San Francisco Bay, CA
When racing, I always use my the adjustable backstay on my Catalina 22 Sport to adjust rake and bend.
^ This! Spoken by someone who know the boat well.

Moving on to discuss a the mechanics of backstay tension, tightning a sagging forestay, and bending the mast:

It's important to be able to visualize what happens when you tighten the back stay on most masthead rigs. There are two distinct phases:
Phase 1: Tighten the backstay enough to remove sag from the forestay. This reduces draft in the headsail and depowers it. After this the masthead can't move significantly aft any further because the forestay prevents it.
Phase 2: As you continue to tighten the backstay, you will compress the mast along the vertical axis, which will cause it to bend and depower the mainsail.


All masts are flexible to a greater or lesser degree, mast head rigs included. If you look at the geometry of a rig, you will see immediately that the backstays exerts compressive force on the mast as well as pulling it backwards.


2018-04-19_11-10-35.jpg


When you tighten initially tighten the backstay up to the point the forestay has very little sag, you are depowering the headsail by reducing the draft.

If you continue to tighten the back stay past that point as much as possible, you are compressing the mast to bend it in the middle, which pulls the luff forward, reducing the depth of the draft out of the middle of the mainsail, which in turn depowers it.

TUNING

On a Catalina 22, first I'd set the stick straight and in the middle and no rake, with backstay off, everything else hand tight. Then I'd tune the forward lower shrouds and upper shrouds to the same tension, around 8-10% (?) of breaking strength. Next, I'd set the aft lowers visibly slack. With the backstay off, I'd check that the forestay is loose enough to deflect it by hand somewhere between 6-12" at 5' off the dock (I'm not very tall!) Next, I'd adjust the length of the aft lowers to limit how much bend I could induce with the backstay on hard (Hard is defined as up to 25% of breaking strength). I'd set the length of the aft lowers to limit bending to 50% to 100% of the mast width from front to back when the backstay was on hard. Probably 50% would be enough for the average cruising mainsail on a C22. That's a pretty good dock tune for performance cruising.

Then I'd take it out sailing in 10-12 knots of breeze with a genoa and fine tune it.

Then I'd use the backstay the way EditorC22NSA recommends above

STATIC TUNE for PREBEND
On most masthead rigs, there is usually only a very little bit of prebend tuned into the rig, if any. The stiffer the mast, the less likely we are to put prebend in a masthead rig. Static prebend, if there is any, is tuned into the Catalina mastrig rig by shortening and tightening the forward lower shrouds whilst lengthening and loosening the aft lower shrouds.

On the typical Catalina masthead rig, the forward lower and aft lower shrouds prevent mast inversion and pumping, allow the use of a lighter, less stiff mast.

I probably wouldn't tune any significant prebend into a Catalina masthead rig unless I were going to sail all the time in high winds and lumpy water. If I sailed in constant high winds and lots of waves and chop, I'd tune in an inch or less of prebend.

There are two more reasons you might want to put some prebend in the mast. One would be if the mainsail draft was too deep due to age.

The second reason to have prebend is that the sail maker built the luff with a curve in it to match a mast that had some prebend. (If there is too much luff curve compared to the bend in the mast, you will see a "knuckle" at the front just behind the luff, because A "knuckle" is tight arc running vertically, within a foot of the mast.)

I'd inform my sailmaker if there's any mast bend if I were buying a new mainsail.

DYNAMIC BEND
Dynamic bend is induced by tensioning the backstay, which primarily causes compression of the mast, which causes the mast to bend. Dynamic bend occurs only when additional backstay tension is applied after the mast is raked aft enough to tigthen the forestay. The mast head will move down a bit. It will also move aft a very tiny bit. For every inch of downward movement, the middle of the mast will bend forward about 3 inches.

In order for the middle of the mast to bend forward, the aft lower must be loose enough to permit the middle of the mast to bend. As the mast bends forward, the aft lower will tighten, limiting the amount of mast bend you can induce. Simultaneosly, the forward lower will get looser.

Judy

Edited several times to remove ambiguity.
 
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Oct 19, 2017
7,746
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
Awesome explanation, Judy. If you haven't already, write a book. It would sell. I'd want a free copy, of course, because, I supported the idea.
:yeah:

- Will (Dragonfly)
-
 
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