Do I need to Put In a New Motor

[kwilson1033]

I recently put an offer on a 1995 Catalina 320 but after the mechanical and sea trial I found that the wind gauge was not working(although the anemometer spun) and the mechanic sent the following notes.

ENGINE INSPECTION/SURVEY
Catalina - Perkins Engine

1. First impression: overpowering diesel smell
2. The engine has numerous leaks: throttle shaft, valve cover and others.
3. The mounts are at the top of their studs and do not hold the engine well.
4. Fuel is leaking from the Racor filter.
5. The oil absorbs under the engine are loaded with oil and coolant.
6. The heat exchanger and expansion tank show recent work. The heat exchanger has studs that are too long so washers were added to take up the length, but some studs are loose.
7. The cooling system is dirty.
8. The bolts for the circulation pump are too long.
9. The PSS shaft seal is dirty and needs cleaning.
10. The starter is rusted, probably from some of the water leaks.
11. The anti-siphon loop is not properly installed.
12. The exhaust system design allows far too much back pressure.
13. At idle the engine shakes very badly.
14. The crankcase pressure is above average.
15. The oil in the engine smells like soot; the engine has often been overloaded and may have missed a few oil changes.
16. The transmission shifts well into forward and reverse but the engine shook so much that leaving it in idle was questionable.
17. The engine is not in very good condition and needs a lot of work. But I question the merit because the engine has been overloaded most of its life which likely has caused abnormal cylinder and valve wear. A new engine installation would cost from 15 to 20 thousand dollars.

The boat ran well in the sea trial but did shake tremendously at a slow idle. I trust my mechanic but I am wondering if I am going to need repower the boat or pass on this Catalina. I would appreciate any input in the next couple days. I am deciding how much to reduce my offer.

Ken

PS If any one has had any experience repowering a 320 I would also appreciate any insights. Thanks

 

[anchorclanker]

How fats your wallet?

Looking at the list, many of those items need remedy regardless of whether you put a new engine in it or not. I question why the mechanic would give you that much information without doing a compression test, followed by a leakdown test. I dont have a crystal ball, and im pretty sure he dont. How can you say the engine is bad without doing all the proper tests?

I would get another opinion, and I would make sure a compression test is done, in the least, and if any loss is noted that its followed up with a leakdown to determine the cause of loss. And why is it shaking so bad at idle? Again, a compression test is needed, and the injectors should be cleaned and if possible tested.

If the engine has old oil and is in a bad state of tune, rings can become fouled and lead to compression loss, blowby, oil consumption... If properly tuned and ran hard for a while It could just come back to life. I would want to know a lot more information before throwing in the towel.

 

[Stu Jackson]

You might want to try the C320 Association forum, www.catalina320.org

Sounds pretty suspiciously like the engine has not been cared for. If that's the case, how about the rest of the boat?

A friend of mine wrote:

My experience has been that a close observation of the seller and those things surrounding them can often give a clue as to the seller's approach to care & maintenance in general. Rare is the person who lets their car stay dirty, with leaking oil, grating brakes, etc., while meticulously caring for and maintaining their diesel engine & fiberglass boat.

Your situation may be the same, only in reverse.

Good luck. I could give you my impressions. In a way, that's what you asked for.

If you are very handy, you could buy the boat and either fix the engine since lotsa of what you described is external, consider a complete rebuild for the guts which MAY but not positive are toast, or repower. Depending on your handiness, a repower could be a LOT less than quoted. If you have all of it done for you, yes, those #s are close.

Another approach: if this is what you've learned, then think of it this way - would you buy a used car that had this kinda report?

 

[Faris]

There's just not enough information to be able to make an educated recommendation here. It sounds like your mechanic has already told you what you don't want to know. My advice is that, if you like the boat overall, pay for it whatever amount wouldn't kill you if you had to replace the engine entirely.

That's how I approach these sorts of things. If I don't know exactly what I'm getting into, I just assume it needs to be replaced and work off of that assumption. If it's repairable for less than the cost of a replacement, then so much the better.

 

[jviss]

I would start by asking him "what throttle shaft?" He's probably referring to the speed control on the injection pump, as diesel engines don't have throttles.

I wonder why you say you trust this mechanic. I think he just wants to sell you a re-power.

Per a previous respondent, I would want to know what the condition of the core is - compression, leak-down, main bearings, etc. It could well be that a somewhat neglected engine is in fundamentally good condition.

I would get another mechanic to perform the compression and leak-down tests. I would ask for a price to correct all the things the original mechanic cited, plus anything the new guy sees. Should be much, much less than a re-poewr.

For the shaking at idle, it might be dirty or worn injectors. For a 12 year old engine it wouldn't be a huge deal to replace the injectors. I did so on my Universal M25 (which is a Kubota D-850) for less money than a rebuild, by buying them through a midwestern tractor supply place - about $85 each, as I recall. In addition, you can always tweak the throttle stop on the speed control up a bit.

So, change the oil, change the coolant, fix the leaks, change the injectors, clean it, paint it - is my advice.

 

[mortyd]

? if you don't trust the mechanic, why hire him? find a mehanic you trust. it's a little hard to help diagnose problems we can't see, hear and smell.

 

[kwilson1033]

Thanks Everyone. I just needed a sounding board and all of your comments have helped to gain a little perspective. I do trust my mechanic both his quality and integrity but I am not certain why the other tests were not completed. I have a call into him. As one of you suggested I am probably just going to treat the situation as if the motor will need to be replaced and adjust my offer. Thanks. If you have any other thoughts I will be checking back later today.

 

[Chris Burti]

As a C-320 owner and active C-320 IA list member, I don't question your mechanic's observations, but do recommend a second opinion as I have the same questions as the previous posters about compression etc.

In addition, if the tach is off (common on our boats) and the idle is set too low (common again) that Perkins is going to run rough as a cob.

Work on the heat exchanger on a boat of that vintage should be expected. On our Yanmars they recommend it every 600 hrs.

FWIW after about 9 years on the C-320 list and a bit longer on this one, this would be the first replacement that I've heard about due to wear.

FWIW2 Mainsheet had an article on Perkins engine mount replacement on the C-320 this year...original front motor mounts were recalled... another source of vibration.

 

[onecoolair]

I have a boat neighbor who has a catalina 30' about 5 years ago he yanked the engine cleaned up all the mess from that dirty smelly deisel Then installed a 48 voltdc motor. A bank of optima yellow tops for dc motor. Leaving house bank alone and separate. Got a small honda for when needing an emergency charge. But has only needed to use it only once or twice. Because once he is under sail all he has to do is leave the key on and the spinning prop charges the batteries right up to full. He is quite happy. He and his family are seen but not heard going out on a rergular basis.
What is really cool is there is a unit that fits over the back of engine and around the prop shaft coupling that creates a hybrd system. It has me thinking I just need to figure out a way to work it into the budget.

 

[anchorclanker]

All good comments. Just to reiterate some things I have said here, and elsewhere about these little sailboat diesels. They dont get used long enough or hard enough in most cases. You run it to leave the dock, and run it to put it back at dock. Seldom do they run hours on end at moderate to full power for any length of time. And that is the absolute worst life for any engine, but particularly a diesel. Couple that with lack of regular oil changes, and being allowed to run with glaring states of mistune, and they die. Not from being worn out, but from carbon fouling.

If it were mine, and unless it had a dead cylinder (under 250) I would change the oil and filters, clean and check the injectors, tune it up (check/adust injection timing/set idle speed) and run it hard for a day or so.

Again, many of the items on your list need to be done regardless of whether you cough up a new engine. So do those anyway.

Diesels like clean fresh oil. After a time the oil will become so polluted with contaminants that the oil seals will harden and begin to leak. Nothing smellier than old diesel oil mixed with fuel, leaking all over the bilge. Yuck.

 

[anchorclanker]

installed a 48 voltdc motor. A bank of optima yellow tops for dc motor. Leaving house bank alone and separate. Got a small honda for when needing an emergency charge.

If all anyone is using the engine for is getting in and out of the Marina, that is probably a good option. These little boat diesels are way overkill if they arent getting regular use and proper maintenance.

And to be honest, a small electric with a decent size battery bank could push the boat for many, many hours if needed.

 

[Jon_E]

...A bank of optima yellow tops for dc motor. Leaving house bank alone and separate....

Someday we'll see a sailboat designed around this configuration. The Optima Yellow Tops don't leak or spill; they are sealed. How nice it would be to have all that weight down low near the center of the boat. If the terminals could be 100% isolated from shorts from bilge water, that would be perfect.

 

[dj2210]

I use Odyssey AGM batteries in my Electric C27. Very happy so far..

 

[anchorclanker]

Optimas have such high failure rates I wouldnt give two cents for one. And there arent many other lead acids I have a lot of confidence in besides Trojans. If I were designing from scratch, building a battery bank along the keel, I would use nickel iron batteries same as submarines and fork lifts. While they dont equal a lead acid in AH output per pound, they can be discharged lower, wont freeze, and wont roll over and die if left in a discharged state. Plus they can be rejuvenated by simply changing the electrolyte. With moderate care they can last over 30 years, and cared for well may last twice that. The boat could rot away and sink before the batteries died.

 

[Jon_E]

If I were designing from scratch, building a battery bank along the keel, I would use nickel iron batteries.... While they dont equal a lead acid in AH output per pound, they can be discharged lower, wont freeze, and wont roll over and die if left in a discharged state.

Hmmm, good point on NiFe batteries, AnchorClanker.

PRO: NiFe batteries are much less toxic, much more environmentally friendly.
CON: NiFe batteries don't hold a charge quite as well.

Still, something to consider.

 

[dj2210]

They are expensive too, like 4k for a 100Ah 48V

 

[anchorclanker]

They are expensive too, like 4k for a 100Ah 48V

Dont rule out used and rebuilt ones. They can last a long, long time. Some old edisons from 80 years ago are still working.

Yes, they self discharge with non use. Solar panels may be able to keep them topped off.

 

[onecoolair]

Optimas have such high failure rates I wouldnt give two cents for one. And there arent many other lead acids I have a lot of confidence in besides Trojans. If I were designing from scratch, building a battery bank along the keel, I would use nickel iron batteries same as submarines and fork lifts. While they dont equal a lead acid in AH output per pound, they can be discharged lower, wont freeze, and wont roll over and die if left in a discharged state. Plus they can be rejuvenated by simply changing the electrolyte. With moderate care they can last over 30 years, and cared for well may last twice that. The boat could rot away and sink before the batteries died.

Hmmm?.......My experince...After using optimas for nearly 25 years. I have had only one blue top optima fail for me with in the first year of service. The rest have lasted over 18 years before needing replacement.

 

[jrowan]

I didn't know that Optima batteries had been around that long. I thought their design was about 10 years old or so for a gel type battery.

 

[onecoolair]

Not a gel cell. Totally different design and charging characteristic's.
They are an absorbed spirall bound glass mat battery. I bought my first Optimas a long,long time ago from the Boat US marine store that used to be on Egret Bay in Clear Lake. Before West Marine took over and then moved the original store to its current location in Kemah.