Cruising in Colder Waters

[Kings Gambit]

I've been noticing comments in another thread pertaining to the need for a heater aboard the boat when cruising in cold climates and waters. I don't dispute that. But, I am curious about what high-latitude cruisers think about the degree of enclosure a sailboat must have for the crew to be comfortable, and thus on the water most months of the year, including in winter. Picture cruising, for example, in the protected waters of Puget Sound and British Columbia, and the Alaskan islands and inlets south of Sitka. Do we need minimally a spray dodger?; a spray dodger with side panels?; full enclosure of the cockpit, aft or center?; or a pilothouse sloop or ketch, or a full-on motor sailor, with a steering station below? Yeah--cost is a factor, of course--but what is the most reasonable trade-off for maximum comfort and enjoyment? [We can't forget about cold rain!]

 

[dhays]

I have a pretty decent sized dodger. When it is really cold, it really isn't adequate. I have been known to huddle up next to the cabin under the dodger, wrapped in blankets and holding the wireless remote for my autopilot. Granted, it was below freezing but I am contemplating a full enclosure for the cockpit for the winter.

 

[Jackdaw]

It all depends on what you call cruising of course, because that term covers a lot of ground... er, water.

But. Minimally a dodger. It keeps rain wind and spray off you while you huddle as far forward in the cockpit as you can. Cause if you're on watch your on deck.

But don't underestimate how much a good heater (espar in our case) can make the whole deal tolerable. Being cold on deck for a watch is much more tolerable when you know that dry warm wonderfulness awaits below at 8 bells.

 

[centerline]

at the very minimum, get a dodger... this allows for having the slider open for ventilation and keeping the rain out:dance:

it also helps minimize the spray when sailing/motoring to weather.

at the other end, and for the maximum enjoyment for the crew, a full, heated cockpit enclosure is great.

myself, I feel a good sturdy dodger with side panels and raingear is adequate for crusing in the northwest, because if you cant stand the rain, you shouldnt be here

a boom tent is a good addition for when you are anchored for a couple days, but a full cockpit enclosure is more trouble than they are worth, and create excessive windage.

as for a heater, get a forced air unit so that it actively draws outside air in, heats it and then pushes it into the cabin, displacing the stale moist air that is common here in the wintertime....

our boat came equipped with a force 10 vented propane unit. the problem with it is that it doesnt displace enough air to keep the O2 levels from dropping below its limit (a 2% drop and the unit shuts itself off). and when we needed it the most, we ran it on high and consequently it shut down sooner, leaving us without heat (other than the propane stove)...
so, in a sense, the safety feature of the force 10 is kind of self defeating....

now we have a Wallas DT30 forced air diesel heater... it delivers warm dry air without shutting itself off...
but we do still have the force 10 installed, so when the temps drop to 25 with the wind blowing, we will light the propane to supplement the heat the wallas puts out.... with the wallas keeping fresh air pumped in, and the damp stale air pushed out, the force 10 works like we always wanted it to.... and in windy 26 degree weather, with both heater running on high, the temps inside the boat can easily reach 80 and climbing...

but we like 68-70, so during the extreme cold, the wallas runs on 4 and the force ten runs on low.... when its warmer and only getting down to the mid 30's, which is more normal, we only run the wallas.

 

[Kings Gambit]

It all depends on what you call cruising of course, because that term covers a lot of ground... er, water.

But. Minimally a dodger. It keeps rain wind and spray off you while you huddle as far forward in the cockpit as you can. Cause if you're on watch your on deck.

But don't underestimate how much a good heater (espar in our case) can make the whole deal tolerable. Being cold on deck for a watch is much more tolerable when you know that dry warm wonderfulness awaits below at 8 bells.

Absent a heater is a non-starter even. The Bavaria came with a factory-installed (ducted) Espar, forced-air, diesel heater w/thermostat, which functions as Centerline described. It's very nice even here in Southern California, especially around Ventura where it can dip into the high 40's on winter nights. Runs off of the fuel tank with its own pump; uses very little fuel and power. I was thinking of installing a duct and vent to the cockpit on starboard side where the heater itself is below deck. But to be of much use, the cockpit would have to be enclosed--at least by my thinking now. I'm resisting the idea of enclosure when, perhaps, a completely different kind of vessel, a pilothouse with a helm station below, might prove better overall (?)--but there are drawbacks there as well. Cruising means Tacoma to Sitka and around Vancouver Island, gunk-holing the multitude of anchorages and inlets along the way, for two or more years, in all months. Perhaps spending several months at a time aboard.

 

[Benny17441]

We have a dodger that zips up to the bimini top. You can be cold, but wet and cold is untenable. We wear layers of clothing according to the temperature and do not forget gloves. Also a good pair of insulated boots are essential. You will get cold when sailing upwind and perhaps comfortable going down wind. Most body heat escapes through the head and the first sign is that your feet will start to feel cold. So goes the old saying, "if your feet are cold, wear a hat".

 

[Kings Gambit]

We have a dodger that zips up to the bimini top. You can be cold, but wet and cold is untenable. We wear layers of clothing according to the temperature and do not forget gloves. Also a good pair of insulated boots are essential. You will get cold when sailing upwind and perhaps comfortable going down wind. Most body heat escapes through the head and the first sign is that your feet will start to feel cold. So goes the old saying, "if your feet are cold, wear a hat".

The "admirable" cannot stay warm for long in cold wind and rain no matter how many layers of clothing and protective gear are donned. Need heat and protection to be available; either in the cockpit or below, or with a combination of both, while underway, or else cruise only in comparatively mild, warmish (summer) conditions. I'm a different story, perhaps; but, am not looking to do this solo!! Just seeking practical insight on cockpit enclosures, full and partial, or the desirability of a pilothouse rig. I know that among many FL boats cockpits are fully enclosed for protection from rain and the cold winds of winter which dip into the low 40's of Fahrenheit, and sometimes lower.

 

[capta]

Reverse cycle air conditioners can heat things nicely, until the sea water temps get down to around 40F.
Thankfully someone told me that before it got there, so I didn't tear the system down looking for the problem. It's pretty easy to tell most of my sailing has been in the tropics, isn't it?
It might be possible to partially close the sea cock to limit water flow, but I never messed about with it; I just bought electric heaters for the one winter. I guess we'll find out in 2017.

 

[woodster]

We have a dodger that zips up to the bimini top. You can be cold, but wet and cold is untenable. We wear layers of clothing according to the temperature and do not forget gloves. Also a good pair of insulated boots are essential. You will get cold when sailing upwind and perhaps comfortable going down wind. Most body heat escapes through the head and the first sign is that your feet will start to feel cold. So goes the old saying, "if your feet are cold, wear a hat".

wool clothing is a good combination for layers clothing and it does not absorb water like the cottons and synthetic stuff does it actually sheds water

 

[John Nantz]

A few more thoughts (repeats of others for emphasis)

Forced air heater is an absolute must because of Southeast Alaska’s humidity. To prevent mold the humidity needs to be kept below 50% RH, including in the forepeak and in places where air doesn’t get much circulation. Bringing wet gear and clothing into the cabin spikes up the humidity, and also does drying anything such as kitchen towels or wet clothing. The forced air heater helps provide drier air and it helps to combat mold and mildew.

A boat doesn’t have much room and there is lots of ‘stuff’ on board. The places where the gear is stowed, especially when it’s near the hull, needs to have air circulation.

We chose the Wallas DT30 forced air heater (like Centerline) because of it’s variable speed and the smaller duct compared to the DT40. Our previous heater was the Ardic 40-something model. If the temperature delta is great it has full output, if the delta is small it puts out fewer BTUs in order to maintain a constant temperature without the up-and-down temperature cycling. This is a very nice feature.

For the inside passage there’ll be a lot of motoring so one of the engine heaters could be helpful but they don’t lower the humidity so the forced air heater will still be needed. Stay outside for better sailing.

Based on what you’re describing, year-round cruising and comfort, a pilothouse is in your future. Sure, a fully enclosed cockpit would be nice, and you might have both, but for the needs you’re describing a pilothouse would be the best fit.

Deadheads: Watch out for them ‘cuz they’re there. It’s a lot better than it used to be because the logging is cleaner and there seems to be less of them but they’re still out there. They don’t install Alaska bulkheads for nothing.

Clothing: Standard affair are yellow slickers. This isn’t fashion city. What is underneath, even in the summer, is thermals, flannel shirts and jeans, wool sweaters and wool cap. Maybe a jacket over the sweater then the slicker. A sou’wester hat on the head end and some kind of waterproof/rubber boots on the other is helpful.

Solar panels and a wind generator will still be helpful to avoid running the generator or engine so much. And maybe even a solar heater if there’s room. I’ve given some thought to an electric outboard to keep from having so much gas on board.

Because city water is really, really scarce, a water maker would be helpful too. We’ve got a little 170 gpd Seafari so we don’t have to carry so much water in the bow. Not required, but handy.

Speaking of bow …. we’ve got 435 feet of rode (5/8” line and 5/16” HT chain) and there has been several times when it all been out. Anchoring in 90 to 100 feet isn’t a 6:1 scope! The next size larger anchor might be considered. And maybe some dive gear, enough to check the prop or keel. Which reminds me, I need to get a larger suit. [Edit: The dock at Shearwater blew away one summer in August. There can be some high winds even during the ‘good’ months. We were in Winter Harbour one August when the Solander Island (Vancouver Island west coast) weather station blew away at 103 knots! and that was only about 20 or 30 miles away.]

If under a dodger (absolute minimum requirement), a remote for the autopilot is handy.

Mountain bike: nice, but not required, for transportation. A rusty beater is okay ‘cuz this isn’t downtown.

Just a few thoughts.

Edit: another thought …. since you’ll be staying on the boat over the winter, hopefully with shore power, then consider a dehumidifier, one with a defrost cycle that can get the RH below 50%. I saw a rather small one a couple months ago and something like that could be set up in the second head with the drain into the sink. Oh, and a couple small fans would be nice. We have one Hella fan and it just sips juice but is quiet, oscillates, works very nice.

Thanks to global warming the Tracy Arm glacier is disappearing fast. Icy Strait is a misnomer now (only 200 years), and the glacier in Glacier Bay has receded so far now it is actually in Canada.

 

[dhays]

"Edit: another thought …. since you’ll be staying on the boat over the winter, hopefully with shore power, then consider a dehumidifier, one with a defrost cycle that can get the RH below 50%. I saw a rather small one a couple months ago and something like that could be set up in the second head with the drain into the sink. Oh, and a couple small fans would be nice. We have one Hella fan and it just sips juice but is quiet, oscillates, works very nice."

Lots of good suggestions by John.

For over 10 years we have used a small dehumidifier on our boat. Our dock has shore power so it is no problem having it run year round. We keep in on the galley counter with its drain hose emptying into a water bottle set in the galley sink. The bottle overflows into the sink and down the drain. I use the water in the bottle to top off the batteries.

We also have two of the low power heated circulating fans from WM, one each in the bow and aft cabins. During the really cold months we also plug in a low watt plate heater in the main salon. It all keep the boat from freezing and the boat stays dry and mildew free.

If we are going out for more than a night, we put the dehumidifier in the dock box. Otherwise it gets bungeed to the salon table leg.

 

[Kings Gambit]

Thanks for replies. I suppose we need to be mindful that much of the Pacific northwest above 50-deg N is remote wilderness area, which is its attraction. So, self-sufficiency would be a requirement as in most cruising situations. I hadn't thought about beefing up the boat with a wind generator in addition to having a diesel-powered generator, plus putting a watermaker aboard--but it makes sense. I suppose if you're running a forced-air diesel heater much of the day and evening, in addition to a few, to several, hr of generator use, plus whatever motoring you're doing, you might wish for auxilliary means of recharging batteries to stretch that tank of diesel as much as possible!! Add to that a battery-powered outboard to keep up!

The warmth-humidity trade-off is interesting. Shut down the forced air heater and you have to deal with high relative humidity and its attendant condensation inside the boat, especially at night or whenever you're off the boat for extended period. I suppose chemical desiccants that can be "recycled-recharged" when the sun is out is a potential solution when not hooked up to shore power, but I know there's divided opinion (not suprisingly) on using them extensively.

 

[John Nantz]

desiccants vs. dehumidifier

The one advantage of the dehumidifier running on shore power is it will have a fan that can keep some air moving while the desiccants don’t.

The idea of a fans in the bow and the stern is an excellent one. We also keep the dehumidifier on the galley counter but the fan is amidships so the bow and stern don’t get as much air movement as they could so I’ll set it at 40% RH to compensate. A bow and stern fan is a good idea.

 

[Zed]

If I was willing to sail in those temps, I'd need a dry suit...another 1600 bucks for the both of us!

 

[thinwater]

.... The warmth-humidity trade-off is interesting. Shut down the forced air heater and you have to deal with high relative humidity and its attendant condensation inside the boat, especially at night or whenever you're off the boat for extended period. I suppose chemical desiccants that can be "recycled-recharged" when the sun is out is a potential solution when not hooked up to shore power, but I know there's divided opinion (not suprisingly) on using them extensively.

There are small dehumidifiers that can run on solar. I've been running this one for 4 years.

http://www.practical-sailor.com/iss...ate/Product-Update-February-2015_11610-1.html

 

[thinwater]

My vote is for a hardtop and side curtains. I've had open cockpits, and they are nice in good weather, but in sustain cool and damp, no. I would not go with a full enclosure (they are available for my boat) because it makes it hard to get on deck quickly, and the side curtains really do add a lot of warmth. Even in near freezing weather with spray we wear only soft shells and wind pants with fleece under. The side curtains brake nearly all of the wind in the cockpit on most any course, and yet you are still outside. If it is nice, all the curtains roll-away.

Not a cold climate, but we sail 12 months, any time the water is soft.

 

[Kings Gambit]

The one advantage of the dehumidifier running on shore power is it will have a fan that can keep some air moving while the desiccants don’t.

The idea of a fans in the bow and the stern is an excellent one. We also keep the dehumidifier on the galley counter but the fan is amidships so the bow and stern don’t get as much air movement as they could so I’ll set it at 40% RH to compensate. A bow and stern fan is a good idea.

Yeah, there are no fans aboard the Bavaria, but I can see where I might wish to install a couple. Generally, the air circulation on the boat is good when at the dock b/c of the two hull portlights that I leave open when not aboard. Those, plus the cowl vents, keep the boat aired out. Frequently, but not always, I open the inside storage areas, cabinets, bilge, & under-sink areas to the air when off the boat for periods longer than a couple of weeks. I also routinely use a disinfectant spray (active ingredient ethanol) to control mold for the insides of lockers, wires, hoses, and anything else I can see and reach. Consequently, there is little, to no, noticeable mildew odor on entering the boat. We also routinely wash bedding, blankets & clothing, in addition to the fabrics of the salon cushions. However, a small dehumidfier, either DC or AC, with a couple of fans for circulation, is a worthwhile idea to test this winter when more condensation starts appearing. Normally, the power cord is disconnected when we're off; so I'll try running the 12-volt version [that Thinwater mentioned] with the solar panel charging.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Cushion cleaning ?

We also routinely wash ....in addition to the fabrics of the salon cushions.

KG,

What do you use to clean the cushions? In place?

 

[Kings Gambit]

KG,

What do you use to clean the cushions? In place?

No. I take the cushion covers off; they have zippers. Throw the covers into the washing machine and wash in cold water using a mild detergent; a formula that a friend makes and sells. Meanwhile, the foam cushions are aired out in the sun. After spin dry, I let the covers air a bit longer then put them back on the cushions while still damp (so they don't shrink to where I can't get them back on) and let them air dry the rest of the way. The cushion covers can get very dirty over a year's time, and this helps brighten them up (plus remove odors).

 

[dhays]

There are small dehumidifiers that can run on solar. I've been running this one for 4 years.

http://www.practical-sailor.com/iss...ate/Product-Update-February-2015_11610-1.html

That looks like an interesting unit. I use one of the small household dehumidifiers. It works really well, but is bulky, heavy, and noisy. That EvaDry looks like it could be tossed into a locker easily. However, it wouldn't be nearly as effective at reducing moisture. Trade off.

What I use in the bow and stern are these. Not sure that I actually use the WM branded model or not. They run for years and are pretty bullet proof. There is a low heat plate at the bottom and a slow turning fan that just keep the air circulating. I keep the forward and aft cabin doors open so there ends up being a lot of circulation.

Again, I am on shore power so the power requirements aren't an issue for me.