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Boats hit rocks all the time, often snapping off deep keels.

Discussion in 'Cruising Sailors' started by TomY, Jan 31, 2018. Add this thread to a FAQ

  1. Tod

    Tod

    Joined Dec 30, 2010
    82 posts, 76 likes
    Montgomery 17
    US trailered
    This was the result of mistaking an uncharted buoy marking a charted wreck for a mooring ball...

    smashedrudder.jpg
     


  2. jssailem

    jssailem

    Joined Oct 22, 2014
    9,614 posts, 4,317 likes
    CAL 35 Cruiser
    US Salem, Moored Port Everett WA
    OUch....
     


  3. JimInPB

    JimInPB

    Joined Aug 22, 2017
    1,526 posts, 436 likes
    Hunter 26.5, 212, 170
    us West Palm Beach
    Ooof, that reminds me that I need to make a new kick up rudder for my 212
     


  4. JimInPB

    JimInPB

    Joined Aug 22, 2017
    1,526 posts, 436 likes
    Hunter 26.5, 212, 170
    us West Palm Beach
    I did not trust Loran at all. Back around 83, I was sailing a Beneteau up to Cape Cod from Long Island in a bit of fog & tried to use a Loran to guide me. That darn thing said that I was in the middle of Fisher's Island, but somehow I still had water all around me.

    When GPS came out, it was like a breath of fresh air. When selective availability got shut off (most of the time) it was almost like cheating. Now I am hard pressed to find a position error that is en excess of 6'. Notable exceptions to that seem to include areas near my house when Airforce 1 shows up in the neighborhood & certain parts of Italy when certain sorties are flown out of Aviano. It would seem that selective availability is still engaged at selected times in selected places.
     


  5. jssailem

    jssailem

    Joined Oct 22, 2014
    9,614 posts, 4,317 likes
    CAL 35 Cruiser
    US Salem, Moored Port Everett WA
    Before loran there was RDF. RDF became ADF which was popular in the 60’s.
    After WW2 Loran-C was the go to system for long range radio navigation. All of these systems had error. Why so many fishing skippers used depth sounder to follow a contour on a good chart.

    Piloting has become a lost art.
     


    jon hansen likes this.
  6. Will Gilmore

    Will Gilmore

    Joined Oct 19, 2017
    4,789 posts, 2,787 likes
    O'Day 19
    US Littleton, NH
    It's too bad. DR is a great tool to use in a math and geometries classroom to give context and meaning to what students are learning. I find that if a student learns at least one meaningful way to apply the theories and formulas they learn, then they can better understand how to apply those same concepts elsewhere. The end result is that they don't forget it after the test. They end up having a better vision of how it will fit into their future.

    - Will (Dragonfly)
     


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  7. jssailem

    jssailem

    Joined Oct 22, 2014
    9,614 posts, 4,317 likes
    CAL 35 Cruiser
    US Salem, Moored Port Everett WA
  8. TomY

    TomY Alden Forum Moderator

    Joined Jun 22, 2004
    1,782 posts, 1,804 likes
    Alden 38' Challenger yawl
    US Rockport Harbor
    Ouch! Even as navigation tech evolves, the groundings do not stop...

    When I think back to piloting with compass and paper chart, I had some groundings. Once Loran made my job a little easier, I had some groundings. Now that I use GPS on chartplotters to do the chart work (much better than I ever could),... the groundings haven't stopped!!!

    But I haven't had one like this in about 10 years.
    Keel damage Email. .jpg

    Thanks to a very strong keel/hull connection, there was no damage (except for a cup of West epoxy and filler).

    I'm a better navigator as time goes by, or is it just caution? Or am I overdue? :)
     


    Will Gilmore likes this.
  9. jssailem

    jssailem

    Joined Oct 22, 2014
    9,614 posts, 4,317 likes
    CAL 35 Cruiser
    US Salem, Moored Port Everett WA
    A bit of all the above.
     


    TomY likes this.
  10. dlochner

    dlochner

    Joined Jan 11, 2014
    3,905 posts, 1,855 likes
    Sabre 362
    113 US Fair Haven, NY
    LORAN delivered highly accurate repeatable readings. Set a waypoint and every time you go to that waypoint you will be in exactly the same spot. GPS, even today does not have the same accuracy. However, LORAN time delays did not always translate into the correct Lat/Lon coordinates due to local variations in the signals, in some areas, as you found out, the coordinates could be off by a considerable distance. If you recall, NOAA navigation charts of the day had the LORAN time delay curves printed on them. The most accurate way to navigate with LORAN was to use the TDs and not the Lat/Lon. I suspect most folks didn't bother to learn how to use the TDs.
     


    TomY likes this.
  11. DArcy - Islay Mist

    DArcy - Islay Mist

    Joined Feb 11, 2017
    379 posts, 336 likes
    C&C 27 MkII
    Ca Ottawa
    Loran TD was repeatable but not always accurate. In some locations, more accurate than others. I used TD charts because the LAT LON translation would be miles out sometimes but even the TD location could be sketchy if you only had 2 TD readings that were oblique. The good thing was you could get an idea of accuracy by looking at the angle between the TD lines. Repeatable didn't help if you hadn't been there before.
     


  12. TomY

    TomY Alden Forum Moderator

    Joined Jun 22, 2004
    1,782 posts, 1,804 likes
    Alden 38' Challenger yawl
    US Rockport Harbor
    75%, so true for me as well. Once we were close to land, piloting new coastline took nearly all my time. There wasn't much time for sailing when I spent much of my time tracking my location, bearings, speed (currents,ayiyi,..), with a pencil and rules, on a paper chart.

    That chart was often below. My eyes spent hours on those charts when they could have been put to better use, scanning the horizon.

    Sailing through the Bahamas in the 80's, Loran was useless. But I don't remember piloting or the time it took on the charts, changing much.

    These days, I sail many more of my coastal miles as I'm free to keep watch ahead. I never stopped piloting visually, whether piloting on paper charts, or digitally with GPS CP's.

    Yet accidents still happen, of course.
     


    jon hansen likes this.
  13. Gunni

    Gunni

    Joined Mar 16, 2010
    5,943 posts, 1,489 likes
    Beneteau 411 Oceanis
    US Annapolis
    The orienting skills of the coastal dead reckoners always impressed me. As much magic as it was technique. The ability to scan the horizon, identify a few features and translate the angles into a ship’s position. Doing most of this in their head. To a young crewmember that horizon just looked like a bumpy blue line, but those reckoners were seeing a map projection and they knew where they were on that map. Full situational awareness. With hand compasses and charts we practiced and learned those skills, building confidence. Never being lost. Knowing where we were, we could go back to sailing the boat.

    I don’t use my hand compass and paper chart as much as I used to but I do still use those orienting skills to confirm what my instruments tell me. Do the angles look right, does the horizon conform with my digital feed? Where am I on that chart in my head? If you aren’t worrying about where you are, you can focus on what you are doing.
     


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  14. jon hansen

    jon hansen

    Joined May 25, 2012
    2,164 posts, 1,945 likes
    john alden caravelle 42
    us sturgeon bay, wis
    motorcycles, snowmobiles, airplanes, motorboats, crashing will KILL you. we all know it. well, sailboats too my friends. thats right, kill you and your friends. the skipper needs to know where he is at all times, period. the op's friends are guilty of gross neglect. that's right, i said it. the skippers crew should be appointed to assist as look outs.
     


  15. jon hansen

    jon hansen

    Joined May 25, 2012
    2,164 posts, 1,945 likes
    john alden caravelle 42
    us sturgeon bay, wis
    if you, the skipper, do not know where you are, stop the damm boat. this is a good rule
     


    Will Gilmore likes this.
  16. jon hansen

    jon hansen

    Joined May 25, 2012
    2,164 posts, 1,945 likes
    john alden caravelle 42
    us sturgeon bay, wis
    i got married standing on a beach in blue hill maine. i went on my honeymoon sailing on aeolus for two weeks on the maine coast. i took my father, my best man, and my sister on my honeymoon. when nonsailors asked why i would take anyone on my honeymoon, my answer was simple. i'd rather have my bride sitting on my lap than a bunch of charts.
     


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  17. jon hansen

    jon hansen

    Joined May 25, 2012
    2,164 posts, 1,945 likes
    john alden caravelle 42
    us sturgeon bay, wis
    she never really forgave me
     


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  18. JimInPB

    JimInPB

    Joined Aug 22, 2017
    1,526 posts, 436 likes
    Hunter 26.5, 212, 170
    us West Palm Beach
    TDs would repeat accurately when things were working correctly. They didn't always work correctly. More than once, I have had a Loran lock up & hang on an old number, even though I was moving. This happened twice within a few hours before I got the erroneous reading that I cited above.

    Even the (not cheap at the time) middle priced receivers had problems as late as Loran C. I never had the top of the line ones, so I can't comment on those.

    The old Loran A system was truly spooky. I only used the dial & line system on an old A receiver once. You could not drive the boat & use that thing at the same time.

    As far as I am concerned, GPS was a godsend for boaters. Pilots too.
     


    Will Gilmore likes this.
  19. jon hansen

    jon hansen

    Joined May 25, 2012
    2,164 posts, 1,945 likes
    john alden caravelle 42
    us sturgeon bay, wis
    fun fact : definition of local knowledge, 'i already hit that spot'
     


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  20. Will Gilmore

    Will Gilmore

    Joined Oct 19, 2017
    4,789 posts, 2,787 likes
    O'Day 19
    US Littleton, NH
    Twice!

    - Will (Dragonfly)
     


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