Head hoses

Jun 1, 2007
265
O'Day 322 Mt.Sinai
Greg, I think you may have it a bit wrong on the hose path (maybe anyway). On my 322, the hose runs from the head directly to the holding tank, athwartships (port to starboard). My boat has a handpump on the aft bulkhead of the head. I have a hose that runs from the holding tank, to the pump, through the vented loop you describe, then back starboard to the through hull and discharge. My discharge through hull is just aft of the raw water inlet through hull. I'll take another look Monday or Tuesday and confirm what I have on my 322. Yours may be different, or may be the same.
I'd like to replace my hoses as well, maybe next winter...
 
Dec 2, 1997
8,729
- - LIttle Rock
Not sure why the boat is set up this way, but I did question the need for a vented loop when I only have a holding tank ( no overboard discharge). The vented loop may be used to create a pretty tight turn. The Trident hose is pretty stiff.
It's set up that way because boat builders do a lot of things very well, but are the WORST sanitation system plumbers on the planet because they don't design a SYSTEM, they put the tank anywhere they can find room for it instead of including one in the entire layout design and then just run hoses anywhere they have to to get around whatever may be between the toilet and the tank.
Trident 101/102 hose IS very stiff--its only drawback. You'll have a much easier time running new hose if you use Raritan SaniFlex RaritanSaniFlex hose instead. It's just as odor permeation resistant but is so flexible it can be literally be bent like a hairpin without kinking. A bit more expensive (you can find it for about $10/ft) but worth it 'cuz it may allow you to find a shorter route to the tank. Manual toilets and most electric toilets can only move bowl contents about 6' in the amount time anyone is likely to keep pumping, and you not only have a 10' run, but it includes a low spot.
--Peggie
 
Jan 7, 2011
4,786
Oday 322 East Chicago, IN
Well, a few thoughts...

I will certainly have to take it apart to see where the hoses run. I bought a length of Trident 1-1/2” hose to start. I think the hose might have cracked over our -30 degree winter, despite having antifreeze in it. It is probably 20-30 years old.

If I have any ugly turns, I will get some Saniflex.

Once I clear out the lazzarette, I will get a better look at the hoses and see where things run. I know one previous owner (I think the original owner) added a second holding tank vent and replaced the toilet to a PHII. Not sure what else he might have done with the rest of the hoses.

One odd thing (at least to me) is that the holding tank is on the starboard side, under the rear berth...the pumpout is on the port side, requiring the pumpout hose run across the beam of the boat (in my case in the already cluttered prop shaft area.

But hey, I don’t even have my sails on yet. Need to have the boat ready to sail first...that is the priority.!

Greg
 
Jan 7, 2011
4,786
Oday 322 East Chicago, IN
Greg, I think you may have it a bit wrong on the hose path (maybe anyway). On my 322, the hose runs from the head directly to the holding tank, athwartships (port to starboard). My boat has a handpump on the aft bulkhead of the head. I have a hose that runs from the holding tank, to the pump, through the vented loop you describe, then back starboard to the through hull and discharge. My discharge through hull is just aft of the raw water inlet through hull. I'll take another look Monday or Tuesday and confirm what I have on my 322. Yours may be different, or may be the same.
I'd like to replace my hoses as well, maybe next winter...
What is the handpump for? I have seen that on pictures of other 322’s. Mine does not have one there. Is it a bilge pump? Mine is out in the cockpit. But on the opposite side of the bulkhead, I have a 1-1/2” Trident hose with a vented loop at the top. Not exhaust. I don’t think it is for my hand-bilge pump.

I will also take photos next time I am out at the marina.

Thanks,

Greg
 
Jun 1, 2007
265
O'Day 322 Mt.Sinai
What is the handpump for? I have seen that on pictures of other 322’s. Mine does not have one there. Is it a bilge pump? Mine is out in the cockpit. But on the opposite side of the bulkhead, I have a 1-1/2” Trident hose with a vented loop at the top. Not exhaust. I don’t think it is for my hand-bilge pump.

I will also take photos next time I am out at the marina.

Thanks,

Greg
The pump in the head space is to pump waste out of the holding tank through the through hole just aft of the raw water through hole. Maybe a PO removed yours, but mine is in place.
 
Jan 7, 2011
4,786
Oday 322 East Chicago, IN
The pump in the head space is to pump waste out of the holding tank through the through hole just aft of the raw water through hole. Maybe a PO removed yours, but mine is in place.
Hmmmm. My boat has always been on the Great Lakes. I wonder if boats could be customized
, like not setting up an overboard pumpout.

Greg
 
Dec 2, 1997
8,729
- - LIttle Rock
O
I wonder if boats could be customized,
like not setting up an overboard pumpout.
They can definitely be customized at the factory to comply with the laws in the waters where they're being delivered. Some boat builders don't install overboard discharge pumps on any boats, leaving it up the dealers to add them where legal if the buyer requests one. Buyers can also choose to add one themselves if they can do it for less than the dealer would charge 'em. And owners are always adding or removing 'em on used boats that are going into waters with different rules than they've been in.
--Peggie
 
Jan 2, 2017
765
O'Day & Islander 322 & 37 Scottsdale, AZ & Owls Head, ME
I have same setup as Tally Ho on my 322. Recently I’ve been getting backflow up to the waterline, sometimes dark, sometimes clear. The Jabsco was recently rebuilt and the holding tank pumped out. Could the air vent at the top of that loop be the problem?
 
Dec 2, 1997
8,729
- - LIttle Rock
Could the air vent at the top of that loop be the problem?
Nope. A blocked tank vent is the most likely culprit. When air displaced by incoming waste can't escape the tank pressurizes, creating back pressure that sends flushes back to the toilet. The two most common locations for a vent blockage are the vent thru-hull (it's spring when dirt daubers build their mud nests and vent thru-hulls are favorite location) and the other end of the vent line...that end of the hose and the fitting on the tank. Don't use the toilet again or try to pump out until you've cleared it.
--Peggie
 
Jan 2, 2017
765
O'Day & Islander 322 & 37 Scottsdale, AZ & Owls Head, ME
Thanks Peggie. I’ll check it out.
Your book has been a great help by the way.
 
Jan 7, 2011
4,786
Oday 322 East Chicago, IN
Well, I spent a frustrating afternoon trying to pull the old discharge hose out...disconnected from the head discharge and the vented loop in my lazzarette. Could not budge the hose. Really tight holes in both the head and the lazzarette. Cut some of the liner in both locations but still cannot get either hose loose. From the engine room, I can move the hose that runs from the vented loop to the holding tank (a little). I can see the hose that runs to the head, but can’t really access it.

I think I will work on the hose that runs to the tank and see if I can get it out of the way. Then maybe I can get the other piece out.

My intent will be to run a Trident hose direct from the head discharge to the holding tank. I don’t have an overboard discharge below the waterline.

Should have gone sailing today instead.

Greg
 
Dec 2, 1997
8,729
- - LIttle Rock
Warming a hose usually makes it a lot easier to get off a fitting. Can you get into a position where you can aim a blow dryer (use a heat gun only if you really know what you're doing with one) at the ends of the hoses?
--Peggie
 
Oct 29, 2017
88
ODay 302 Kenosha WI
I feel your pain Tally Ho, I had to remove my fuel tank to get access. Spent the extra money to replace all the other hoses that ran in that area. Fuel tank is still in my garage, looking to add an access port to help clean it out good. Good luck.
 
Jan 7, 2011
4,786
Oday 322 East Chicago, IN
I feel your pain Tally Ho, I had to remove my fuel tank to get access. Spent the extra money to replace all the other hoses that ran in that area. Fuel tank is still in my garage, looking to add an access port to help clean it out good. Good luck.
Hi Peggy,

I didn’t try any heat. I got the hoses off the toilet discharge and the vented loop ok. The real problems are where the hoses go through the liner. I was wondering if soap would help, but I doubt that would help much. I think the key will be getting the “kink” under the liner straightened out. And I think I can get access through my engine compartment.

I have a lot of heavy hoses under that liner with the 2 lengths of waste hose, a pumpout hose, and the engine exhaust. So I may need to disconnect some of that to get my bad waste hoses out.

Does a Raritan PHII push air through the discharge hose when on “dry bowl” (enough to push waste /water up and over a vented loop)? Just curious.

I did take a hair dryer out with me, but did not need to use it (yet).

Greg
 
Jan 7, 2011
4,786
Oday 322 East Chicago, IN
I feel your pain Tally Ho, I had to remove my fuel tank to get access. Spent the extra money to replace all the other hoses that ran in that area. Fuel tank is still in my garage, looking to add an access port to help clean it out good. Good luck.
I was using an oscillating tool to cut out a little fiberglass in the lazzarette floor to loosen the 2 hoses, and I realized I was dangerously close to my fuel tank (plastic) and fuel hoses.

Hoping not to take the tank out, but if I ever have to replace the pumpout hose, it may require it. The hose runs down the hull, under the tank, and across the boat to the holding tank.

I wonder why they didn’t take the pump out line directly up and out the starboard side instead of the port side.

Greg
 
Oct 29, 2016
1,915
Hunter 41 DS Port Huron
@Peggie Hall HeadMistress someone had mentioned that they replaced the 1-1/2" saniflex line with a 1" line which you didn't advise. I am just wondering why other that calcification on the line walls, but what if the boat is in fresh water or the boat is using fresh water for flushing? Would not the increased velocity help with keeping the line clear? or a better question, what is the ideal velocity for a waste line, I know in gravity lines one doesn't what to have too great a slope >1% as the water/liquids with pass the solids and leave them behind, but in the case of a macerater pumped line to the holding tank, would this hold true? as everything becomes a liquid(y) flow. It would be good to know the ideal fluid velocity for a waste line.
 
Dec 2, 1997
8,729
- - LIttle Rock
Does a Raritan PHII push air through the discharge hose when on “dry bowl” (enough to push waste /water up and over a vented loop)? Just curious.
Yes...it can push bowl contents up to 4 vertical feet and/or 6 linear feet in the dry mode. That pump can easily provide 20+ years of reliable trouble free service if it's just kept well lubricated and rebuilt every 5-6 years.

--Peggie
 
Dec 2, 1997
8,729
- - LIttle Rock
The distance isn't long enough for 1/2" diameter to make any noticeable difference in the velocity. The industry standard for toilet and tank discharge hoses have always been 1.5" Jabsco is the only exception...their toilet discharge hoses have always been 1", but even they began using discharge fittings that will accept either 1" or 1.5". Raritan began offering a discharge fitting that can take either one for just one reason: to accommodate buyers who are upgrading from Jabsco toilets but keeping their hoses.
As for sea water mineral buildup in the toilet discharge line...whether the line is 1" or 1.5" makes no difference. It can easily be prevented by a cupful of distilled white vinegar flushed all the way through to the tank, followed by a quart of clean fresh water once a month.
]I know in gravity lines one doesn't what to have too great a slope >1% as the water/liquids with pass the solids and leave them behind...
I don't know where you got that. It may apply to household toilets but not to marine toilets because, unlike household toilets, marine toilets have pumps that push the bowl contents--solids (which are broken up as they pass through the pump) and liquids together-- through the discharge line. There are many boats that have toilets above the waterline and tanks in the bilge--the slope can be anything from 10 degrees to vertical. On the typical sailboat that can have a tank with an inlet fitting higher than the toilet discharge fitting, I often recommend installing a loop--not necessarily a vented loop, just a loop--immediately after the toilet because the user only has to pump or leave his finger on the button long enough to push waste over the top of the loop, gravity gets it the rest of the way. This not only helps to prevent run back, but if the toilet is flushed in the dry mode, followed by only enough water to rinse behind the flush it can double the number of flushes a tank can hold. First, solids are broken up even in a manual toilet...second, bowl contents aren't just flowing downhill from a marine toilet, they're being pushed by the toilet pump. Velocity is impossible to
...but in the case of a macerater pumped line to the holding tank, would this hold true? as everything becomes a liquid(y) flow.
Macerated or unmacerated, it makes no difference

It would be good to know the ideal fluid velocity for a waste line

Impossible to calculate because there are so many variables-- for instance...The diameter of the piston in most manual toilets is 1.75"...the diameter of the piston in the Rarian PHII is 2.5". When you calculate the cubic inch capacity (displacement) of the PHII with a 2 1/2" diameter piston, it comes out to a little over 12 cubic inches. If you do the same calculation for a pump with a 1 3/4" diameter piston with the same stroke, the cubic inch capacity is only 6 cubic inches...which means the PHII can move twice as much per stroke as other manual toilets. There are also variables in the ability of electric pumps to move waste...A Jabsco macerator pump is rated to move waste through it @ 12 gallons/minute. The pumps in some high end all china "thrones" can move waste 30' in a few seconds...the Tecma Silence can move waste up to 90 linear METERS, 30 vertical METERS! And there's a lot more variation in both manual and electric toilets including how vigorously (or not) the user pumps and how well maintain his toilet is.

Why do I have the feeling that you've been trying to apply fluid dynamic "rules" to marine toilet systems...?? ;) If so, I hope I've managed to explain why you can't.

--Peggie
 
Oct 29, 2016
1,915
Hunter 41 DS Port Huron
@Peggie Hall HeadMistress thanks for the detailed response to my quandaries, the 1% slope statement was in relation to land based waste systems, in no way was I attempting to apply land based gravity flow design parameters to a marine installation. My questions were purely driven by my inquisitiveness to understand why when replacing a 1-1/2" ID hose on a waste system one couldn't, for ease of installation use 1" ID hose or if available 1-1/4" ID hose (but it appears this is not manufactured).
The ideal fluid velocity in a waste line had to be considered somewhere along the way to arrive a 1-1/2" ID line size, unless, as you have stated, marine waste systems are poorly designed and a result of necessity, whereby there design specification is, that should be good enough.
Could it be that Jabsco actually did the engineering behind their pump design and that is why the outlet is 1", to maintain a given fluid velocity?
Understanding that the possible ramification to reducing line size could be the macerator pump not being able to produce enough head pressure to overcome the resistance of the reduced line size, but if the pump does generate enough head pressure what other issues could arise from reducing the line size to achieve easier installation.
Think about how much easier it would be to install a 1" ID line, one wouldn't even have to pull the old line out, all one would have to do is cut the ends shorter on the old line and run the new 1" line inside the old (after a thorough cleaning of the old line that is).
My thoughts are being driven by the fact that our Sapphire is coming into its 12th season and the waste lines have given us all the indications they are in need of being replaced, I am not relishing the idea of pulling new lines, especially from the forward head, it's not really the expense of the replacement line that has me thinking, its the effort required to achieve the task, again Ms Peggie Hall your comments are always insightful and greatly appreciated.
 
Last edited:
Dec 2, 1997
8,729
- - LIttle Rock
Methinks you're waaaaaaay over-thinking this!
Think about how much easier it would be to install a 1" ID line, one wouldn't even have to pull the old line out, all one would have to do is cut the ends shorter on the old line and run the new 1" line inside the old (after a thorough cleaning of the old line that is).
You're failing to take the varying wall thicknesses of hoses into account. Cheap single wall flex PVC #148 has about a 1/4" wall thickness...1" ID double walled rubber hose can have a 1.5" diameter OD.

Apparently you have two toilets at opposite end of your boat with one holding tank that's a lot closer to one than it is the other. Have you considered adding a second tank a lot closer to the forward head? 'Cuz even a PHII can only move bowl contents 6-8' in the amount of time anyone is willing to spend pumping it...leaviing waste sitting in the discharge line if the distance from the head to the tank is more than that.
--Peggie