Blue water, open ocean

Jackdaw · Feb 8, 2013

anchorclanker said:
That's what I want to really study, storm avoidance, and preparation. A question though. In the "left for dead" story, from the Fastnet race, everything in the cabin came loose and was sloshing, everything flying everywhere. Was that inevitable, or could they (should they) have done a better job of tying things down?

The true problem is in a capsize. VERY few boats are prepared for that. Floorboards, cans of beans, etc all become dangerous items when dropped from what is now the ceiling. Best practice says to fix them so this cannot happen. Its a pain so most boats do not.

Watch and learn.. A GREAT video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gqe1Sxa2GXo

Stu Jackson · Feb 8, 2013

There was a guy a few years ago who sailed to Hawaii in a West Wight Potter, maybe the BIG 19 foot version.

Weather IS everything.

Google seasickness or check it out on the BoatUS website. There have been so many articles written about it it is mind-boggling, but there still are only a handful of "cures" available, and all of then require one to try them out first to see how they affect each individual. Dehydration is a result.

wufibugs · Feb 8, 2013

Jackdaw got me thinking about boat interiors and my 31' in particular. To save money, Hunter has long narrow bins along the interior walls. I had contemplated changing the bins to cabinetry to increase storage and for aesthetic reasons. Making the bins heel or capsize safe would be difficult and ungainly, which discourages one from bothering. However, upon reflection stowing the same stuff in cabinets would be much safer in rough seas.

RichH · Feb 8, 2013

anchorclanker said:
That's what I want to really study, storm avoidance, and preparation. A question though. In the "left for dead" story, from the Fastnet race, everything in the cabin came loose and was sloshing, everything flying everywhere. Was that inevitable, or could they (should they) have done a better job of tying things down?

That story, probably more than any other, really showed the survivability of a well made sailboat in what was literally hurricane conditions. It seems they could likely have all survived had they been able to use the cabin.

The most applicable explanation of that 'disaster' is that most of those boats that were lost, sunk, badly damaged etc. were ill designed for the conditions and didn't match the 'historical scantlings' (strength and design) needed to survive those ultimate conditions .... for example: not sufficient reserve 'safety factor' etc., typical of a historical 'blue water' boat but rather boats that were designed around and to optimize versus a 'racing rule' (IOR) and not 'survivability' .... all by itself and without 'expertise' from the crew.

I later sailed on one of these boats, an Oyster, that was 'saved' but was poop-pitched/rolled/dismasted during the race ... and severe structural upgrades were made so that boat 'could' cross the Atlantic ... but nothing could be done about the hull shape, long overhangs, massive cockpit volume, etc. that may have greatly contributed to the instability and vulnerability in the first place.
Takes more than 'expertise' to sail long distances in the open ocean ... as you can only 'expertise' a boat for just so long because you sometimes need to sleep and during such times that boat will simply have to safely 'take care of itself' .... and also too, every human has a finite capacity to avoid 'ralph', etc.

IMO - If you want to sail the deep blue, you need a 'proven' deep blue water design with purpose inbuilt strength to take care of the rare 'unexpected', all by itself ... otherwise you need to be 'damn lucky' out there in a lightweight / flimsy 'coastal' design or a 'clorox bottle'.

keys please · Feb 8, 2013

Unforgiving ..... just really unforgiving... thats all that can be said about the deep blue sea....I love it loveit loveit.... but make no mistake..... It has no emotion and runs the grommet of; as flat as any lake i have ever seen, to converting the whole darn crew to see the fear of Jesus when the waves break over the top for 3 1/2 days..... We knew what we were getting into, but was in a hurry to unload and go back for more before the short season (quota) off south America would end..... This was a good boat and crew.... but let me tell you,,,,,, its no picnic out there in those kinds of conditions..... Of the 11 crew on board only four of us could function...... everybody else was in their bunks...... sick as hell...... There was not one antennae left on the top of that boat when we hit port..... you just pray like mad that the welder knew what he was doing.... Was i sea sick .... no I sure shoulda been as coming through the canal (Panama) we were drinking johnny walker lots..... heading to Ponce Puerto Rico to unload fish..... on a net boat (tuna) MV Gemini 106ft. no problem, to scared to be sick... will i ever see seas like that again, hope not, but????????? Then on a different day out of sandy eggo, on a day boat with friends from up north..... to much beer (3 day party) and nice 3 1/2 ft swells i got sicker then a dog.... had to give all that good ole beer back to the sea... Sea Sick is just no fun whatever....
You really need to know your boat, equipment, and respect the deep blue, and really keep an eye on the weather..... REPEAT LAST SENTENCE 3 TIMES...
all the best brian

Chris Patterson · Feb 8, 2013

Open ocean sailing bears little resemblance to coastal sailing. It can separate the "real" sailors from the dock queens, I assure you. I once took a very substantial boat on a delivery with the owner and his wife. First mistake. Oh, they ran around on the docks with their high dollar sailing clothes, rigging knife on their belts, and explaining to everyone that would stand still for a minute about how it was done. Lake sailors through and through. I literally didn't have the boat out of sight of land when the lady was sick as a dog. Done. Second mistake, and it was mine as well, was I needed to have the boat "there" at a particular time frame. (Note to self: never set a deadline for entering). I had every rag on the boat up, even sheeted down the courtesy flags trying to get that pig over on 'er chines because I was fighting 7 foot head seas, and a bad period. That boat slammed for two days. The owner finally fell out in the middle of the first night, and he joined his wife in THE FOREPEAK to ride it out. Wrong. Worse place on the boat to be sick. By this time I was sick, and with little recourse. Had to man the helm. Offshore, you can't just slide up in a harbor and get over it. The one time I went below at about 3 in the morning, just to take stock of the situation, I was holding on in the companionway with both hands, the boat was violently pitching and rolling, and the interior looked like it had been VANDALIZED. Everything you can imagine was in the floor. Because on the lakes they were accustomed didn't do that kind of thing. I laughed heartily, just like this: Ha Ha Ha. It truly was one of those times when I would have given every cent in my pocket to be off of that boat, all 4 dollars, and 36 cents. Was it miserable? HELL yeah. Would I do it again. In a skinny minute. And did with another boat almost like it a month later. Much more pleasant trip by the way.
Now, you can read enough on these sights to hear a thousand more experiences just like this or worse. But do not, do not let this stop you from doing it. Prepare. Be tough. Pray. Reach out man. It's one of the few of life's true adventures a man can still do. At least legally. In retrospect, I've loved every minute of it. And if it's all good, nothing's good.

And the only cure for seasickness is, sitting under an Oak tree for 12 hours.

But seriously, drink water even if you keep throwing it up. Then drink more.

RichH · Feb 8, 2013

The only way to do this half-correctly is to learn to do your OWN weather forecasting, using all the available date, reports, routers, etc. so that you can make YOUR OWN decisions depending on the immediate developing local conditions.

The best entry source for this would be "Mariners Weather Handbook" - Dashews ... VERY expensive. http://www.amazon.com/Mariners-Weat...ie=UTF8&qid=1360395687&sr=8-2&keywords=dashew

25yearslater · Feb 9, 2013

What anyone venturing offshore has to ask is, what is my risk tolerance? You have a great deal of good advise from the previous posts. Remember there is no such thing as an unsinkable boat. Under the most extreme conditions no vessel is immune to disaster. The key is what is your ability to remain focused in time of stress. Boats as small as nine feet have crossed oceans in some terrible conditions while larger boats have come to grief. The fact remains that even the coastal cruisers have survived when blue water boats have failed. The Fastnet race you refer was a prime example. Indeed more boats were abandoned and later found intact and floating. A self assessment without bravado and self delusion are often where you will find your answer. A capable boat poorly handled is more likely to end badly than a lesser boat expertly sailed. I don't think KonTiki would meet anyone's definition of a blue water boat yet Thor Heyerdahl sailed 4300 miles accross the Pacific with it.

Chris Patterson · Feb 9, 2013

In retrospect, I guess that did sound like a jab at lake sailors, which I didn't mean. The Great Lakes is certainly a body of water to contend with. The first time I've ever walked on an "iceberg" was up there, while rescuing a sailboat, wow! That remark came from me about this couple in particular. "Look at me" boats, on small lakes, almost dock queens. When you leave your whole sailing career behind of no tides, currents, or weather phenomenons, the outside is a learning curve at best. I'm very surprised that trip didn't "break" them. It happens. I know recently of a couple that outfitted the boat, left with a ten year float plan, and was back in six months. The boat went to the hill.
As far as seasickness goes, I've heard, (and try to practice), no alcohol of course, no heavy greasy foods prior, and get a good days rest the day before. That last one is hard to do, what with provisioning, etc.
While underway, stay topside ALL the time, stay cool, maybe even in the shade of the sail, and keep your eyes on the horizon. This seems to work for me relatively well, and I'm sure others have their own ways. Whatever works. To avoid it, I would go to extreme measures..

25yearslater · Feb 9, 2013

You made some good points about the Lakes Chris. It is a matter of different challenges. The lakes offer cold, fresh water where boats float lower and the waves are short and choppy. The ocean offers tides, currents and some mighty big damn waves. There is the adventure. We are all looking for it. The where and how is secondary. For some tearing around the buoys is the challenge. For others, long distance passage making. For yet others, just a nice afternoon daysail is the thing. That's what's great about it, it has something for anyone willing to partake. And the good natured teasing is all part of it. That alone challenges us to consider our next adventure.

keys please · Feb 9, 2013

YES AGREED... Drinking a few to many does not help with sea sickness... but then we grew up thinking that when at sea for longer stretches 6-8 weeks when we finally made port it was always best to keep the alcohol content up as it was one way to kill any bugs our bodies would encounter.... that sounds like hearsay today but in my youth working in the purse seine (net boats) industry in Sandy Eggo we readily believed anything that provided good reason to knock back a couple boiler makers.... I know, thin excuse.... but we were young and indestructible..... Alcohol mixed with greasy food and coffee is not a good combination to avoid sea sickness.... try throwing up through your regulator at 60 ft.... lesson learned.... I always seemed to learn better by experience.. but most people are smart enough to apply common sense and avoid some of the dumber leasons.... all the best brian

jibes138 · Feb 9, 2013

Anchor,
What makes for a fulfilling experience is the spirit of adventure. What I have found in many years of coastal cruising is it is the fun of "reaching a destination." I really don't enjoy very much just going for a day sail with no destination in mind. For that kind of sailing I greatly prefer just sailing my dinghy. There is not much that beats the feeling though of setting your sights on a destination and achieving your goal. As far as the kind of boat, read "Fastnet Force Ten." In the Fastnet race in I think 1979 all kinds of crews required rescue and many were incapacitated by injury and sickness, what they found afterward were the boats where crews were rescued were still floating, so the average boat can "take it" but the people can't take it. I have taken my O'day out to sea for a week at a time, the last time sailing from Mystic Ct. to Hampton, Va rather than hug the coast I headed due south keeping about 100-150 miles offshore until the 37th parallel. We had a storm for two days with following seas of about 12 feet (just guessing) and the winds were steady at 25 to 28 apparent with gusts to 35 or so. I would not have wanted to be pounding into those waves, but running it was awesome, I was hitting 11 knots regularly surfing the waves. Since you are wondering "what it is like" the sea state and sailing conditions did not concern me, what scared the hell out of us was the lightning. Watching it hitting all over the place for over a full day we were just wondering when it would hit us. Very nerve wracking. On the positive side was we saw a whale breach and I have a photo of a very large shark that came by to check us out. Lots of dolphins surfing the waves along with us. After a week at sea we were happy to get back to port and get some good sleep, eat some good food, and take a nice shower. Sleep was typically in three hour or so segments. We had three crew rotating shifts for two hours each so two hours on four hours off. No autopilot so we hand steered the whole way. Nothing to be scared of but my advice is have a nice destination to set your sights on, some beautiful anchorage maybe or a town you want to visit and spend a few days. Then your journey will have some meaning not just the sailing for the sake of sailing.
The intracoastal is a very unique experience, there is endless wilderness and wildlife to see. But most of it is better for a power boat like a trawler since sailing in the canals is not practical. The sailboats are mostly powering and being used like a trawler, which is OK but my preference for say the section from Morehead City NC to Charleston SC would be to go outside and enter the Charleston harbor from the ocean.

The other concern with sailing the ocean is getting used to sailing at night. Nothing is darker than the ocean at night on a cloudy night. You can't see anything, can't see the waves about to hit you, so you do a lot of staring at the compass or GPS, kind of like staring at a lightbulb for hours. But on a cloudless night with a full moon and 12 knots of wind there is nothing better in the world. My absolute favorite sailing I have ever done is at night under those conditions. So plan a trip with a destination in mind and go do it. Start with staying close to shore so you can duck into a port if everyone is sick or you can get rescued easy. We use an EPIRB if far offshore, and I recommend it, but near coastal you usually have some rescue crews nearby. I don't know the texas coast so I can't recommend anything. If you trailer the 22 take a trip to Charleston, or NC or the Chesepeake and get some good experience in near coastal conditions. Lots of great places to see and do.

Charlie Jones s/v Tehani · Feb 10, 2013

Very well put together post Jibes. I don't much day sail either. Much prefer "going somewhere" even if it's just a beach across the bay.. Having a destination makes for a better trip.

I might also add. Coming across the GOM single hand, I set a timer for 20 minutes, and slept, mostly on deck. Every 20 minutes, wake up, scan the horizon, check the boat and course, reset timer and go back to sleep.

And a sunrise offshore, after a long night sailing, is one of the most awesome experiences I've had.

25yearslater · Feb 10, 2013

Jibes that is a concise description of what I have missed most in my sailing hiatus. The night sailing with a warm offshore breeze and seeing a sunrise are sights to behold. The arrival at a destination after getting thumped is a sense of accomplishment few will ever experience. Glad you mentioned Fastnet Force Ten by Jobson. The lessons learned make it a must read by anyone venturing offshore. Anything by Lin and Larry Pardee is a definate read as well.

kloudie1 · Feb 10, 2013

Well put, Jibes..
I have always asked for the 0200 to 0600 watch so I can see the sun rise! Mighty fine..