Yes, I think Lithium Ion is a bridge to ultracapacitor technology.
It just ain't happening quick enough.
Batteries - What The Future Holds.......
- Thread starter Maine Sail
- Start date
Yes, I think Lithium Ion is a bridge to ultracapacitor technology.
It just ain't happening quick enough.
Yes, we need our brightest working full tilt on this, brings renewable energy on to the grid, on demand.
The Dreamliner problem has the potential to seriously quench any kind of lithium battery research if this isnt resolved ASAP. Those batteries are costing Boeing billions each day those planes sit on the ground and have the potential to put Boeing out of business, or at least damage their future. We can be sure insurance companies, in an attempt to skirt potential losses, will take a hard line on anything carrying a lithium battery if this isnt solved soon, and if there are no further incidents.
Lithium batteries are everywhere, in your laptop, your cellphone, your Nissan Leaf etc.
Every airplane flying has 2 to 3 hundred lithium batteries on it already.
Boeing has maybe a scale problem, big lithium batteries might have different issues than many small batteries. Tesla seems to have solved the battery problem in cars, Fisker apparently has not.
The really interesting thing here is this is a known "potentially troublesome" technology and yet both Boeing and the FAA got it wrong and not a little wrong, it looks like the failure rate is pretty high.
They will fix it.
Every airplane flying has 2 to 3 hundred lithium batteries on it already.
Boeing has maybe a scale problem, big lithium batteries might have different issues than many small batteries. Tesla seems to have solved the battery problem in cars, Fisker apparently has not.
The really interesting thing here is this is a known "potentially troublesome" technology and yet both Boeing and the FAA got it wrong and not a little wrong, it looks like the failure rate is pretty high.
They will fix it.
Last report I heard was... "there appeared to be an unintended chemical reaction", not quite sure how the reporting media is interpreting the science, but anytime you store a great amount of potential energy in a confined space, the fuse gets shorter. The dream liner has applied a great deal of new technology in a relatively short period of time, setting the stage for problems. Lets hope lives will not have to be sacrificed.
This airframe flew thousands and more hours before it was ever certified. Surely any inherent LI threat would have surfaced. This battery chemistry is presently in thousands of cars - but the cars are not burning up at the rate of three-in-a week.
Presently there are just a few of these airplanes in normal service-- yet three incidents all within two weeks time?
I have no idea how some of us apply what passes for logic these days - but nobody cites facts that support the idea that these recent events stem from a design problem.
It is frankly indefensible conclude design descision in favor of LI use is the root of these three recent events - not unless one is willing to completely ignore the many thousand hour history of this airplane - and the historic performance of LI power systems.
Presently there are just a few of these airplanes in normal service-- yet three incidents all within two weeks time?
I have no idea how some of us apply what passes for logic these days - but nobody cites facts that support the idea that these recent events stem from a design problem.
It is frankly indefensible conclude design descision in favor of LI use is the root of these three recent events - not unless one is willing to completely ignore the many thousand hour history of this airplane - and the historic performance of LI power systems.
A radio news report I heard stated: "Investigators have reported high voltages and thermal runaway. Experts have not been able to explain what a thermal runaway is."
Jerks. Even Nigel Calder or any reputable battery company could tell these idiots what thermal runaway is.
One would think that the plane should have battery temperature indicators, too. In the interests of "fair & balanced" reporting, I don't know if they do or not.
Jerks. Even Nigel Calder or any reputable battery company could tell these idiots what thermal runaway is.
One would think that the plane should have battery temperature indicators, too. In the interests of "fair & balanced" reporting, I don't know if they do or not.
What else is there to conclude?
The engineers and FAA inspectors are dissecting the batteries and looking through the remains with microscopes looking for the cause. Yuasa has their engineers looking at their own batteries, and allowing FAA inspectors to investigate them. They have the smartest people in the world working on this, and they wouldnt be focusing on the battery if that wasnt the root cause, or awful close to it.
In almost 110 years of aviation there is simply no history of batteries catching fire aboard aircraft. Until now. The Dreamliner is the first commercial aircraft to go into service with LI batteries, and has only been in service for just over a year, having made its first commercial flight Oct 26 2011.
In the history of aviation, there have been many occasions where a design fault was found in a particular model long after it was in service. And in most of the cases the problem wasnt found until there was great loss of life. The De Havilland Comet, the DC-10, Concorde, and many others.. Actually I feel very sad they grounded Concorde. Anyone ever familiar with it knew it had some potentially dangerous spots, but that was the tradeoff to go that fast. They grounded it because they lost their balls.
At least the problems with the Dreamliner (up to now) are relatively minor and have been caught before it could hurt anyone.
And now news that they either already have, or are (were?) planning to put LI batteries up on the Space Station. In light of the risks a failure would impose, that is simply stupid, IMHO.
Remember, the Dreamliner batteries are lithium cobalt (LiCoCO2 I think) batteries, which are much more inherently dangerous than the LiFePO batteries that MaineSail is writing about here. What I wonder in the Dreamliner case is why they don't for now just go with some older battery technology in the short run until they are confident they have the bugs worked out in the new batteries. Are the systems so specialized that different batteries can't be substituted?
I will remind everyone that this thread is about LiFePO4 batteries. It is NOT about LiCoO2 or any other Li chemistry. If you want to discuss the off-topic, media driven hysteria, of LiCoO2 batteries please use the Sails Call Lounge Forum.
LiFePO4 / Lithium Iron Phosphate (LFP) is a totally different technology than LiCoO2 / Lithium Cobalt Oxide (LCO.
Any posts about Li safety, from this point forward, shall be 100% related to only LiFePO4 technology. Any post about other Li chemistry, not used on board boats, will be removed.
I want to keep this thread about what is being used in boats, and that is LiFePO4.....
LiFePO4 / Lithium Iron Phosphate (LFP) is a totally different technology than LiCoO2 / Lithium Cobalt Oxide (LCO.
Any posts about Li safety, from this point forward, shall be 100% related to only LiFePO4 technology. Any post about other Li chemistry, not used on board boats, will be removed.
I want to keep this thread about what is being used in boats, and that is LiFePO4.....
Maine Sail, thanks for stressing that there are different Li battery chemistries and that we are not talking about Boeing’s current battery problems.
A couple of questions,
1) Is it your experience AGMs do not live up to their manufacturer’s cycle life predictions (Lifeline and Trojan predict 1000 cycles at DoD of 50%) unless you take “extremely” good care of them? I think East Penn predicts under 500 cycles for their AGMS @ 50% DoD.
2) What Electrical Car forums could I read to find out real world testing of LiFePo4?
3) From what I am hearing from EV car owners I know, the LiFe batteries are exceeding manufacturer’s life cycle prediction, is this what you have read?
4) What has to change in the current charging systems on boats (alternator regulator, AC battery charger, solar charger) for LiFePo4? Could the 400 amp hr bank you tested be done for $3000? Can LiFe banks be added later to increase amp hours totals?
5) When are you going to do a “pay for view” webinar on building and balancing a LiFe bank?
I read the marathon thread on Cruiserforum on LiFePo4 house banks. Good information, but takes some time to learn who knows their stuff and who is offering bad advice.
A couple of questions,
1) Is it your experience AGMs do not live up to their manufacturer’s cycle life predictions (Lifeline and Trojan predict 1000 cycles at DoD of 50%) unless you take “extremely” good care of them? I think East Penn predicts under 500 cycles for their AGMS @ 50% DoD.
2) What Electrical Car forums could I read to find out real world testing of LiFePo4?
3) From what I am hearing from EV car owners I know, the LiFe batteries are exceeding manufacturer’s life cycle prediction, is this what you have read?
4) What has to change in the current charging systems on boats (alternator regulator, AC battery charger, solar charger) for LiFePo4? Could the 400 amp hr bank you tested be done for $3000? Can LiFe banks be added later to increase amp hours totals?
5) When are you going to do a “pay for view” webinar on building and balancing a LiFe bank?
I read the marathon thread on Cruiserforum on LiFePo4 house banks. Good information, but takes some time to learn who knows their stuff and who is offering bad advice.
No problem..
NO BATTERY EVER LIVES UP TO THE CLAIMS, OUTSIDE OF A LAB.... AGM are worse than most other LA chemistry batteries in this regard.
I have some customers who've had less than 100 cycles on a $2000.00 bank of AGM batteries. If you figure the average boater will cycle the batteries maybe 40-50 times per year, and that's a stretch for most, and the average bank lasts 3-5 years, then we can easily see that's 50 - 250 cycles and a far cry from the 1000+ most of them claim. The real world of marine applications are no where near what a lab is. Even when you get batteries out to five + years they've often failed by "industry standards" by year three or four. Shallow cycling and proper care can get you more cycles but cycling to 50% DOD on sailboat will barely get you 1/3 of the "lab" claims..
I find DIY Electric Car to be one of the better ones. But do keep in midn these guys are pushing these batteries far harder than we would on a sailboat. Our loads are miniscule in comparison. The batteries seem to be holding up but I still don't believe the "claims". Even at 1/3 of the claims a LiFePO4 bank kicks the butt of any LA battery.
Yes, I am reading that but I tend not to believe it "hook line & sinker". When people spend big money on batteries they tend to like what they have and lose impartiality. I hope I am proven wrong with my cynicism but I got burned bad by the lies fed to use by AGM makers so am still entering my LiFePO4 experience with a lot of skepticism. Still the other benefits far outweigh just the cycle life. The fact that I get don't lose 20% of my bank below 50% SOC, and get the top 15% to use, above 85% SOC, means that my usable capacity is 80% of the bank not the 35% of the bank that it is with LA batteries.
The biggest changes revolve around STOPPING charging when the batteries are full. These batteries, unlike LA, should not be floated. Some guys float but I don't like that idea.. Charge to full, shut off charging. None of the currently avaible products do this properly. They can be made to do this, with fancy programing tricks, but you need the regulators, chargers and solar controllers that are fully customizable to do this.
I have redundant relays that will also cut the charge sources when the bank reaches the "full" target voltage.. You can build a bank for $3k or less and only about half of that will be the cells. You need at least a 30A bench top power supply, MC-614 alt regulator, alt temp sensor, fully programable solar controller, fully programable battery charger, EV-200 contactors, BMS, battery banding, buzzers, switches etc. etc....
It will be a while. I am still very, very skeptical due to the blatant lies and deceit fed to us by the AGM makers early on. They drove very good batteries pretty much out of the market, GEL's, to replace them with a less costly to produce and IMHO an inferior product, AGM.. I want a LOT of time with these batteries before I would do a "tutorial". Ruin one of these cells/banks and it gets VERY, VERY expensive. It is not about safety it is about your WALLET.... There are lots of guys on the electric car forums who thought that could do without a BMS or re-invent the wheel who have bulged cells and ruined them.
Many of the guys over there do know their stuff and there are some poseurs who don't. Overall it is a great thread as related to boats. Still the self education on LiFePO4 goes far beyond that thread alone, plan on a year of reading at a minimum..... Every time I think I have a good grasp, a new tid bit pops up....
Managed to get some work done on my battery pack and battery management system...
I made the cell compression case from 1/4" aluminum plate, some 1/2" square aluminum tube, 5/16" threaded rod and some 3/8" polycarbonate for the see through cover.. I will be sending the parts out today for anodizing.
Thinking blue anodizing will look nice...?
The BMS box is also coming along well. The alarm buzzer, manual reset and the solar and alt high voltage cut relays are in.. Still have some internal wiring to do though..
I made the cell compression case from 1/4" aluminum plate, some 1/2" square aluminum tube, 5/16" threaded rod and some 3/8" polycarbonate for the see through cover.. I will be sending the parts out today for anodizing.
Thinking blue anodizing will look nice...?
The BMS box is also coming along well. The alarm buzzer, manual reset and the solar and alt high voltage cut relays are in.. Still have some internal wiring to do though..
Blue anodized wins....
Expenses so far:
4 - 400Ah Winston Cells = $1032.00
Shipping Cells = $250.00
Tyco EV200 Contactor = $79.00
House Power BMS Board = $75.00 (Clean Power Auto LLC.)
Cell Modules = $54.00 (Clean Power Auto LLC.)
Aluminum for end plates/compression = $64.00
3/8" Polycarbonate = $27.00
Anodizing Aluminum = $60.00 (minimum charge)
Nuts, Bolts, Threaded Rod, Washers etc. = $12.80
Solar and Alt HVC relays = $8.60 (Cole Herse 70A)
Bus Bar = $4.80 (Blue Sea)
Switches, Alarm Buzzer etc. $44.00
Terminals = $9.50
Total Materials = $1720.70
Compare that to a bank like this:
4 - 100Ah Odyssey PCM2150's for a 400Ah AGM bank = $1509.60
(note I am not even including the hold downs in that price just the batteries)
"Claimed Cycles" (disclaimer: I don't believe either of these "lab" derived claims and do believe they will both be lower in real world use.)
Odyssey Cycles at 80% DOD = 400 Cycles
Winston LiFePO4 at 80% DOD = 2000 Cycles (newer literature claims 3000)
$$ Per Cycle Odyssey = $3.77 per cycle
$$ Per Cycle LiFePO4 = $0.86 per cycle
Expenses so far:
4 - 400Ah Winston Cells = $1032.00
Shipping Cells = $250.00
Tyco EV200 Contactor = $79.00
House Power BMS Board = $75.00 (Clean Power Auto LLC.)
Cell Modules = $54.00 (Clean Power Auto LLC.)
Aluminum for end plates/compression = $64.00
3/8" Polycarbonate = $27.00
Anodizing Aluminum = $60.00 (minimum charge)
Nuts, Bolts, Threaded Rod, Washers etc. = $12.80
Solar and Alt HVC relays = $8.60 (Cole Herse 70A)
Bus Bar = $4.80 (Blue Sea)
Switches, Alarm Buzzer etc. $44.00
Terminals = $9.50
Total Materials = $1720.70
Compare that to a bank like this:
4 - 100Ah Odyssey PCM2150's for a 400Ah AGM bank = $1509.60
(note I am not even including the hold downs in that price just the batteries)
"Claimed Cycles" (disclaimer: I don't believe either of these "lab" derived claims and do believe they will both be lower in real world use.)
Odyssey Cycles at 80% DOD = 400 Cycles
Winston LiFePO4 at 80% DOD = 2000 Cycles (newer literature claims 3000)
$$ Per Cycle Odyssey = $3.77 per cycle
$$ Per Cycle LiFePO4 = $0.86 per cycle
Trying to get a relative size MS. Is that sitting on a standard circular saw table?
Also how do I charge those finicky and prone to burst into fire if improperly charged Li batts with my standard alternator and battery charger.
I'm thinking that you would have to have special equipment to keep from setting yourself on fire. read $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$x100000....
Do they even make chargers for this kind of stuff???
Also how do I charge those finicky and prone to burst into fire if improperly charged Li batts with my standard alternator and battery charger.
I'm thinking that you would have to have special equipment to keep from setting yourself on fire. read $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$x100000....
Do they even make chargers for this kind of stuff???
OOPS
read through the rest of the posts and now realize this is about a special Li chemistry
Disregard the safety comments.
still want to know the size factor though.
read through the rest of the posts and now realize this is about a special Li chemistry
Disregard the safety comments.
still want to know the size factor though.
Bill,
400Ah LiFePO4
Length 18 7/8"
Width 12 7/8"
Height 12 3/4"
Foot Print = 19" X 13"
400Ah yields 320 Ah's of usable Capacity or 80% of the bank. (100% SOC to 80% DOD)
Weight 134 Pounds
Cycle Life at 80% DOD = 2000 cycles
400Ah Group 31's
Length 13" (each battery you need four)
Width 6 3/4"
Height 9 3/4"
Foot Print = 14" X 27" or 28" X 14" (need to account for battery boxes)
400Ah yields 140 Ah's usable capacity or just 35% of the bank. (85% SOC to 50% DOD)
Weight 260 Pounds
Cycle Life at 80% DOD = 150-400 cycles
Lighter, smaller and can be charged back to 100% with virtually no "acceptance limiting" they pretty much take all the current you can throw at them right up to about 99% SOC........
There are a few things that need to be considered with LiFePO4.
1- Over charge them and they can be ruined $$$$$$.
2- Discharge them too far and they can be ruined $$$$$$.
3- You don't need or want to "float" LiFePO4 just charge and stop. Nothing fancy..
4- You don't need fancy regulators or controllers just ones that can have temp sensing turned off and that can be programmed for the charging voltage.
5- For the safety of your wallet a BMS (battery management system) should be used with HVC (high voltage cut) and LVC (low voltage cut).
My pack will be charged at 13.8V which keeps me well below the upper knee. Most alts and "dumb" chargers can not be set to properly charge LiFePO4 therefore regulators like the Balmar's, which can be infinitely programmed, are necessary. You'd also want the alt temp sensor (but not the battery temp) because the batteries will cook most standard alternators. This bank can take 1200A of charge current if you have it available..
My BMS system will be used like over current protection is for wires. I plan to stay out of the voltage range of the BMS but it is there if I need it along with the LVC and HVC relays....