Was Sandy A PERMANENT Game Changer For Boating?

Nodak7 · Nov 1, 2012

rardiH36 said:
Considering that:

- Sandy damaged/wrecked a lot of boats and some marinas and changed the landscape of sounds and bays in arguably the most active/populated section of boat enthusiasts in the country;

- Many of the boats are probably older vintage;

- Many (if not a majority and me included) of owners are also nearing older vintage who might now calculate it's not worth the energy and cost to continue with their hobby/sport/passion for what might be only a few remaining years before really old age kicks in;

- Younger folks don't seem to be taking to boating as eagerly as their parents -- and now might have another reason not to;

Question: WAS SANDY A PERMANENT GAME CHANGER FOR THE BOATING COMMUNITY?

What segment will take the biggest hit in respect of recovery. Larger Power Boats? Cruising Sailboats?

I am observing the heart-breaking Sandy destruction (and ever so much more for the overall population than just boat owners) from the unaffected the Left Coast. So please excuse of my post might not be politically correct right now. But it seems to me this is a game changer. A confluence of boating trends that are occurring anyway. Now accentuated by a terrible event.

Rard, I have to disagree. I believe that the same could have been said for the last two big storms (Katrina, Irene and now Sandy) and I see nothing that would indicate what you are saying. Sailing has been around for many generations and I think it will be around for many more. You are correct though in your assessment of the current batch of sailors. We are getting old but there will be others that will take our place. As a example I see a lot more interest in the Americas Cup competition. Additionally I bought my first true sailboat when I was 60. Truly it is not a young mans sport but others are waiting in the wings "to live the dream". Many that get into it cannot until they have raised their family and can afford the time and money it takes. IMHO

BTW here is an comparison of the three storms I found very interesting. As you can see Sandy was ugly but nothing compared to Katrina and sailing survived that one!

COMPARATIVE STATISTICS UPON U.S. LANDFALL
Strength
Katrina: Category 3 (Louisiana)
Irene: Category 1 (North Carolina)
Sandy: Category 1 (New Jersey)

Top Wind Speed
Katrina: 125 mph
Irene: 85 mph
Sandy: 94 mph

Diameter (extent of high winds)
Katrina: 400 miles
Irene: 520 miles
Sandy: 940 miles

Atmospheric Pressure
Katrina: 920 millibars (lower is stronger)
Irene: 951 millibars
Sandy: 940 millibars (lowest ever to make landfall north of North Carolina)
Typical at sea level: 1013 millibars

Storm Surge
Katrina: 14 feet, funneling to 28 feet at New Orleans
Irene: 8 feet
Sandy: 12.5 feet

Maximum Rainfall
Katrina: 15 inches
Irene: 10-15 inches (N.C.); 8 inches (N.Y., Vt.)
Sandy: 13 inches

Maximum Snowfall
Katrina: 0 inches
Irene: 0 inches
Sandy: 34 inches

Deaths
Katrina 1,833
Irene: 56
Sandy: 69 Caribbean, 55 U.S. as of Oct. 31 a.m.

Property Damage
Katrina: $81 billion
Irene: $19 billion
Sandy: $20 billion, estimate

kenn · Nov 1, 2012

Nodak has the definitive answer, I think...

Does anyone have approximate numbers for boats destroyed in those storms? That might give some idea of their impact on the used market.

Realistically, if many clubs and marinas in the NJ/NY coastal areas were so damaged or traumatized that they don't rebuild... or the area owners suddenly decide to switch hobbies... that could have a large impact.

Sidebar - interesting item here from 2009 on a flood-control proposal that in theory could have minimized the water damage to Manhattan. Warning - in Dutch, but has pictures.

Ross · Nov 1, 2012

I think that Sandy was an indicator of things to come. I believe that the extremes are going to become more frequent and more likely to be game changers. Sandy blew through here on Tuesday and we are still under her cloud shield. Always before a hurricane would blow in and out in a day or so and we would have blue skies and nice weather. It was still spitting rain this PM.

Witzend · Nov 1, 2012

How much time has really passed since all three of these events...not much. The cumulative effect has yet to be felt...for the next event is again just around the corner.

It is not just the leisure marine industry that is at risk here of a major shock!

The environment is forever changing, either evolve or become extinct.

finding41 · Nov 1, 2012

Quote (rardiH36 " Younger folks don't seem to be taking to boating as eagerly as their parents -- and now might have another reason not to;

Question: WAS SANDY A PERMANENT GAME CHANGER FOR THE BOATING COMMUNITY? )
I don't think it is necessarily going to be Sandy; times are changing. Some will go some will come.
I don't think boating in general is as accessible to middle class as it once was. Now with licenses, certification, etc it is becoming an activity that one has to work at and pay more $ than X-box to get in the game. Not to mention the cost of say a boat, fuel, insurance, slip, etc.
25 years ago all you needed was something that resembled a boat to be involved at some level.

There are lots of young people coming up in the ranks to fill our positions in the future. They may not be cruisers, more like foilers and racers... Check out this site http://www.sailinganarchy.com It is just like here... Just (different) younger? faster? But there is a good mix of participants. (I'm one.)
There is allot happening in the sailing world right now. Some of it is becoming more affordable while some is just Nuts. You can go on to CragsList or eBay or Kijiji and pick up a sailboat that you can sail and sleep on for less than $1000. Ready to go. ( This add is 7 hr old!) http://ontario.kijiji.ca/c-cars-veh...ilboats-22-VIKING-SAILBOAT-W0QQAdIdZ427581048
It may be 30 years old but it's still allot of fun.
I got my boat last Nov. and I am sure it is the BEST investment and decision I have EVER made. Both for me (...You know..) and my family.
If more people knew how much fun not working was I think there would be more jump at the chance to sail.
I purposely slowed down my business for the summer (Peek time for contractors) to enjoy and learn how to sail with my family. Best investment ever!

Patrick S/V Shangra-La · Nov 1, 2012

We have seen many big storms come and go The only thing changing for some of the people affected will be the insurance premiums. Just like in Florida they will send the cost of insurance through the roof in these areas.

I payed $1275 this year for 70K coverage. it is getting rediculas but if you want to play you gotta pay.

centerline · Nov 1, 2012

I truly dont mean to seem callous or uncaring of the tragedies that some have experienced due to the storm, but im stating my opinion in response to the OP's question...
Boating, in general, has been around in windy, wet conditions and weather for a very, very long time, and another storm isnt going to upset it even a bit. And, there is too much money involved in the boating industry for a little storm do any permanent harm to it.....I will respectfully agree it was a big and damaging storm for the area it went thru, and also caused severe financial losses to some, but in the big picture it was nothing but a cause for money to change hands, in every industry of the area....
As for the money changing hands in the the boating community, insurance companies will be paying, insurances will be be raising premiums. some folks will be selling boats, others will be buying new boats, some will be purchasing damaged used boats..... the salvage yards will be restocking their inventory of used parts... materials will be purchased for repairing and outfitting... marinas will be repaired.... some folks will be out of the boating business forever, and some will have an opportunity to get into it.....
The storm may have affected us and our boats as individuals in the area, but the storm has not hurt the boating industry anymore than it has hurt the human race..... we will rebuild what we lost and wait for the next storm to show up......its what us humans do!

Forrest15112 · Nov 2, 2012

Game changer? I'd say so in some ways. The marina I'm in across the lake from N.O., was destroyed by Katrina. It sat dilapidated for a few years. I have been there about a year and a half and progress is slow. Half of the docks are still unusable and the other half are brand new. People aren't banging the door down to get in either. While most available slips are taken, I think the damaged docks keep others out. Some other, better protected marinas nearby are full though. On the south shore, in N.O., the marinas look busy, but not like they were before the storm. It's been a couple of months since I was there, but the N.O. Yacht Club, which burned to the ground in the aftermath of Katrina, has been rebuilt and is much nicer than before, but the docks were in deplorable condition and only a small handful of boats were actually occupying them. It didn't look safe to walk on. I don't know for sure, but before the storm, it was challenging to find a slip anywhere on the lake. There may not be a demand for space to warrant rebuilding. Many residents left and never returned.

Sandy hasn't destroyed the infrastructure there and I think the sailing community will rebound there much more quickly than here. Katrina destroyed a large percentage of boats and marinas from New Orleans to Ocean Springs , MS., plus the homes and businesses of those who owned them.

WayneH · Nov 2, 2012

I don't think it will be a game changer at all. Hurricane Ike rammed through Galveston Bay and a little side body of water called Clear Lake. Devastation was nearly total on a lot of marinas there.

http://votaw.org/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7532

I know the guy who took these pictures. He was in his dinghy right after the storm. This was just the east end of Clear Lake. Today if you look around HARD, you can still see some damage. Mostly, everyone has rebuilt. And that was when the bottom had dropped out of our economy. Remember 2008? My 201K does. I'm still waiting for it to be a 401K again but I bought a sailboat and retired anyway.

So I'd say not a game changer. But you will have some people who will walk away from their boats (no insurance, no will to rebuild), some will sell out but most will repair or replace their boats. The marinas will rebuild. The nation with it's 30 second memory will forget. And in 3 years, everything will be back to normal.

MrBill_FLL · Nov 2, 2012

insurance will go up, some marina's with change their rules, and it will be slightly more expensive as owners and service providers realize the risks. -its a wake up call, but no. people will still want to use boats. (its like asking if an earthquake in CA is a game changer.. depends on who you are, and your income level.)

Witzend · Nov 2, 2012

Again, the Storm by itself is not a game changer, it's the fundamental change in the carbon cycle that will be for all coastal inhabitants. 253 mya the Great Permian extinction occurred, wiping out 95% of all life forms due to the change in CO2 levels in the atmosphere. This was largely believed to be a result of the Siberian basalt flows. Man now has been injecting mass quantities of carbon, from the clearing of the old growth forests, to the industrial revolution, to the precipitant burning of fossil fuels. These carbon deposits took millions of years to sequester, and we are releasing then in a blink of an eye. The predictions of sea level change as a result has dire consequences and is the game changer!

Gary_H · Nov 2, 2012

Hasn't changed boating in the Southeast or Gulf states and we get hurricanes more than any other portion of the country. I've been through about 6 or 7 in my lifetime and people still are as drawn to the Sea and sailing as they have ever been. Things will be rebuilt people will still want to be on the water and will still buy boats. Life goes on.
Gonna be a lot of bargain boats on the market in the next few months that's for sure.

cb32863 · Nov 2, 2012

Yes oh yes. I am going to panic, sell my boat and stop sailing on my Midwestern US metro area lake...... Chicken Little strikes again.... :bang:

Nodak7 · Nov 2, 2012

WayneH said:
I don't think it will be a game changer at all. Hurricane Ike rammed through Galveston Bay and a little side body of water called Clear Lake. Devastation was nearly total on a lot of marinas there.

http://votaw.org/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7532

I know the guy who took these pictures. He was in his dinghy right after the storm. This was just the east end of Clear Lake. Today if you look around HARD, you can still see some damage. Mostly, everyone has rebuilt. And that was when the bottom had dropped out of our economy. Remember 2008? My 201K does. I'm still waiting for it to be a 401K again but I bought a sailboat and retired anyway.

So I'd say not a game changer. But you will have some people who will walk away from their boats (no insurance, no will to rebuild), some will sell out but most will repair or replace their boats. The marinas will rebuild. The nation with it's 30 second memory will forget. And in 3 years, everything will be back to normal.

Wayne these pictures are amazing but I am struck by the number of boats that looked completely unprepared for the storm. Lots of sails were left on and dinghies still setting on the boats. Some sections looked unaffected and others a complete disaster. Amazing! Thanks for sharing.

Gunni · Nov 2, 2012

As we were doing the tedious storm prep for H.Sandy last Friday, one of my helpers said, "this is like having a pet you are responsible for". Made me think there are a lot of irresponsible "pet" owners out there who need to get out of boating - they are a menace to responsible owners. Their boats careen about, fling debris, and when they make an insurance claim, we all pay.

Like the guy on the end of my dock who lost his foresail last year in H.Irene because he left it furled, and Irene unfurled it for him, shredding the sail, heeling and nearly sinking the boat after chaffing a hole in the shear. He left his new foresail on for H. Sandy :cussing:

Or the dude on the next dock that lost his foresail to Irene, and decided to tempt fate this time by leaving the new sail on. I'm astonished at the number of people willing to skip the storm prep. Clearly they are willing to shirk their responsibilities, are not being held accountable by the marina. I note that the marina has now modified my agreement indemnifying themselves from any damage to my boat from the negligent acts of other boaters. It is time to kick a few scofflaws out of the boating community. They are unqualified to own boats. Good riddance.

*end of rant*

Bill1565 · Nov 2, 2012

quote=rardiH36;973074]- Many (if not a majority and me included) of owners are also nearing older vintage who might now calculate it's not worth the energy and cost to continue with their hobby/sport/passion for what might be only a few remaining years before really old age kicks in;.[/quote]

Punta Gorda was (is) a retirement community in the county with the highest percentages of people over 65 and over 85. In 2004 the eyewall of Hurricane Charlie passed right over the city. An anemometer at the hospital helicopter pad recorded a gust of 176 before it blew away.

City is bigger, brighter, more vibrant now than it was in 2003. There are 4 additional boating clubs here with 200 member ceilings. Planning a November event with 300 boats anchored off the city's NEW river walk.

Sailing and boating will go on. Things change though. In my lifetime I have gone from DR plotting of crossing LI sound to an Ipad on my helm. Vacuum tube/crystal controlled 1 channel radios to AIS. Egyptian cotton to Kevlar.
No telling what New Jersey will look line in a few years.

Nodak7 · Nov 2, 2012

Gunni said:
As we were doing the tedious storm prep for H.Sandy last Friday, one of my helpers said, "this is like having a pet you are responsible for". Made me think there are a lot of irresponsible "pet" owners out there who need to get out of boating - they are a menace to responsible owners. Their boats careen about, fling debris, and when they make an insurance claim, we all pay.

Like the guy on the end of my dock who lost his foresail last year in H.Irene because he left it furled, and Irene unfurled it for him, shredding the sail, heeling and nearly sinking the boat after chaffing a hole in the shear. He left his new foresail on for H. Sandy :cussing:

Or the dude on the next dock that lost his foresail to Irene, and decided to tempt fate this time by leaving the new sail on. I'm astonished at the number of people willing to skip the storm prep. Clearly they are willing to shirk their responsibilities, are not being held accountable by the marina. I note that the marina has now modified my agreement indemnifying themselves from any damage to my boat from the negligent acts of other boaters. It is time to kick a few scofflaws out of the boating community. They are unqualified to own boats. Good riddance.

*end of rant*

Gunni, I hear you but they are everywhere! Even up here. I believe you would end up with a "significant" reduction in boats and boaters if you were in charge!

It is amazing to me what others can do and get away with it. It makes me wonder sometimes what really is the "minimum" you need to get by and get away with it. The fact that they can leave their boats exposed to these potential problems and not even care is beyond my comprehension. I would be worried sick and never sleep. They seem to be careless and in that they put those that do care (and their property) in harms way!

joker460 · Nov 2, 2012

The only effect of Sandy and all other Hurricanes that do damage will be next years insurance premium. The costs get spread out over all of North America.

Stu Jackson · Nov 2, 2012

BoatUS will have statistics on damaged boats.

Those idiots who didn't prepare their boats may not come back to boating. One could say that it will "open up slips" for newcomers - but those slips will be a long time coming in some cases.

Many folks whose boats got totaled also may not come back into boating. In our marinas here in N. California, such a large majority of boats never go out it is astounding, completely different than what I read about the use of boats back east and in FL and the Gulf Coast. The boat next to us in our marina sat sadly neglected for over six years, they finally "locked it up" with a chain at the end of its slip, the PO finally took his stuff off after the vessel was impounded by the marina, and it finally sold at a ridiculously low price and was eventually moved out.

Also, rardi, the folks in Santa Cruz rebuilt after the tsumani/eq.