X-Traveler or Furler First?

[DavyBones]

X-Traveler or Furler First:
First off, yes I'm aware they are two completely different things.

I just bought my first sailboat, a Venture 21, and have the availability to upgrade to these two things at about the same cost. I've heard arguments for both as to which is better for a new sailor to have, from more control & easier to dump the main sail, to having the on-the-fly adjustable genoa in case it gets too much for me to handle while still learning the ropes.

Not to be downing myself or my own ability, but I don't see myself getting too terribly complicated with trimming the back-stay or controlling an exact 30 degree heel or whatever, anytime soon. I say this because I know there is a lot to learn about trimming everything together, and all the fine tuning, and the years of experience some have in doing so compared to my limited hours of available sailing time over the next year or so. I probably have at best, a very limited understanding of how the traveler works, but have been told by some more experienced sailors to chose that first, because if nothing else, the main sail would almost always be used while the front sail may not even come out on any given day, thus rendering a furler a useless cost more often than a traveler.

Since I haven't used a traveler yet and dont have a full understanding of it, I'm not sure if that level of fine tuning is as beneficial to me as having a more controllable jib/genny when I can always dump the sail with the main sheets and re-trim it - learning the feel of the trim more and better.

After having said all this, I am also somewhat of a purist and believe one should learn on the simplest form first, through whatever endeavor be it sailing or race cars, to not only be capable when technology fails, but also to have a better appreciation of your cool new tools. So whichever we decide, we will be starting off with the jib set we currently have (hanked-on standard, storm, genoa (140%'ish - haven't measured it yet) and standard rigging before we fully upgrade.

I'd love to hear some thoughts on this, keeping in mind too that it is only a 21' boat.

 

[caguy]

Go with both. You can make a PVC furler for about $20. See instructions below.
http://sbo.sailboatowners.com/components/com_mtree/attachment.php?link_id=8063&cf_id=24

Finding a used traveler on Craigslist or Ebay will save you plenty.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Choices!

Are you saying that you have 3 head sails? You said standard (???), storm (less than 100% ???), and 140%. If you put a furler on your boat, you would need to convert the luff of each sail from the hanks. That's an additional cost.

From a sail trim and safety standpoint, it sounds like you have a variety of sails to choose from depending on the conditions so it doesn't sound like you really need a furler for reefing purposes. I'm not sure what caguy is talking about but I doubt it would serve the purpose of reefing your head sail.

Remember, not all furlers can be used for reefing. And if you are simply going to use the furler for furling, why bother when you can simply drop the sail when you want to anyway?

The traveller will be more useful, particularly if you have no boom vang (not mentioned by you). Without a vang, you can blade out the main with the traveller, and you won't impact the shape of your main sail (at least for the range of the traveller). If you have a vang, and know how to use it, the traveller can have less importance.

If I were you, I would add the traveller and the vang and learn more about sail trim. The reefing furler is more of a luxury and if you are going to add one to your boat, then you may as well do more research into your needs and desires.

Keep in mind that all of these expenses may not even be worthwhile if you decide that you have outgrown the boat and want to move up in either size or performance. Depending upon the age and shape of your sails, you may make the most significant improvements by purchasing new sails instead. (there is always so much to consider! )

 

[MLampner]

As a reasonably new sailor myself I'd opt for the furler. While the main may give better balance it is far harder to work with if you are out on your own, particularly if you must hoist it at the mast and do not have an autopilot.

I feel far safer in a decent blow working with just my jib, as I know no matter how wild things get I can always roll it up without having to leave the cockpit. In light wind you will want both sails and again the amount of time to deploy a hanked on jib if out solo is a lot greater as is retrieving it with the main so long as you are head to wind its going to come down where its easily tied up that doesn't always happen with a jib.

That being said if you have a first mate that is going to be on board at all times the traveler is a great addition and hanked on jibs with two people to manage the boat aren't a big deal.

Long and short of the answer from my very limited experience is it depends on how often you must go out alone. Alone is always less fun but still time on the water is always great and if it must be alone I want to be as safe as I can be. I find working with just the jib safer if I am out in conditions I am not one hundred percent comfortable in.

 

[Merlin Clark]

Whichever you decide, I'd do the ebay thing like Frank says, the gear classifieds here on SBO, craigslist and the local marine salvage yard if you have one nearby.
FYI, at a minimum, the work to the sail to use with the furler and accessories will probably cost more than a new furler. I'd just get the genoa done.
Furlers, especially reefing furlers are VERY handy and safer than changing sails when it gets stinky. I didn't want to part with the $$ so I added a downhaul and ran the halyard back to the cockpit. My traveler was in a bad place so I replaced it with double mainsheets for about $150 in hardware fm sailcare. Better control with this rig than the original pin car and short track. I'm happy with this mod.

But, I've become a big fan of "leave it alone and use it awhile before making any big changes". A very wise tidbit I picked up here on SBO.
You might use the boat a few times, get caught in the rain and say "darn, wish I'd have spent the money of a bimini instead of xxxx!"

 

[higgs]

When day sailing, most sailors, including myself, don't use the traveler very much, but we all use our furler pretty much evertime. If you have a furler you can reef, you need only to set up one for the furler. Most people use their largest sail. Most people with furlers only have one head sail. Not having to hank on sails saves a lot of hassle each time you go out.

 

[caguy]

Are you saying that you have 3 head sails? You said standard (???), storm (less than 100% ???), and 140%. If you put a furler on your boat, you would need to convert the luff of each sail from the hanks. That's an additional cost.

From a sail trim and safety standpoint, it sounds like you have a variety of sails to choose from depending on the conditions so it doesn't sound like you really need a furler for reefing purposes. I'm not sure what caguy is talking about but I doubt it would serve the purpose of reefing your head sail.

Remember, not all furlers can be used for reefing. And if you are simply going to use the furler for furling, why bother when you can simply drop the sail when you want to anyway?

The traveler will be more useful, particularly if you have no boom Vang (not mentioned by you). Without a Vang, you can blade out the main with the traveler, and you won't impact the shape of your main sail (at least for the range of the traveler). If you have a Vang, and know how to use it, the traveler can have less importance.

If I were you, I would add the traveler and the Vang and learn more about sail trim. The reefing furler is more of a luxury and if you are going to add one to your boat, then you may as well do more research into your needs and desires.

Keep in mind that all of these expenses may not even be worthwhile if you decide that you have outgrown the boat and want to move up in either size or performance. Depending upon the age and shape of your sails, you may make the most significant improvements by purchasing new sails instead. (there is always so much to consider! )

What furler cannot be reefed? The very nature of the furler is to reef by only partially deploying the head sail. With the PVC furler you do not have to change the luff.. You use the existing grommets to attach to the foil.

I made mine for a Mac 25 and it would also serve a Mac 21 or 22 as well. The simplicity of the design makes for fewer fewer things to go wrong when compared to a commercial furler.

There are quite a few people on this forum who have made their own and are happy with them.

If you were to use the genoa as your furling sail you could sell the other two sails and buy your traveler. You can also keep them in case you decide to race and need to hank on your sails. There is a compromise using a furler that most cruisers and recreational sailors are willing to make for the convenience and safety of using a furler. If you ever have the wind kick up suddenly, the waves do too. Going out to the pointy end of a bouncing boat to change sails can be challenging.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

I think the factor of safety and the need to reduce sail in the open environment is relevant for boats that are used in large, open bodies of water. Green Lake Michigan appears to be a small, protected lake. I can state from experience that wind and waves never rise to the occasion where avoiding the foredeck is a matter of safety more than a matter of convenience. However, the boat is trailerable and Lake Michigan is nearby, so that issue is also based on DavyBones pattern of use (which he didn't express).

I guess reefing a sail with a furler can be subjectively considered. I wouldn't use a furler for reefing if it weren't designed to accomodate a partially furled sail. Others, I suppose, don't have any objection and gladly do it. Not all commercially sold furlers are reefing furlers - they are intended for use only fully deployed or fully rolled up, not in-between. I imagine that a home-made furling unit made from shedule 40 PVC pipe does not really have any specifications. I find it odd to talk about the "safety" aspect of utilizing a furler on the one hand and then promote a home-made furler on the other hand. Doesn't reliability, ruggedness, and durability factor into the "safety" equation? PVC pipe isn't exactly known for any of those qualities ....

 

[caguy]

I think the factor of safety and the need to reduce sail in the open environment is relevant for boats that are used in large, open bodies of water. Green Lake Michigan appears to be a small, protected lake. I can state from experience that wind and waves never rise to the occasion where avoiding the foredeck is a matter of safety more than a matter of convenience. However, the boat is trailerable and Lake Michigan is nearby, so that issue is also based on DavyBones pattern of use (which he didn't express).

I guess reefing a sail with a furler can be subjectively considered. I wouldn't use a furler for reefing if it weren't designed to accommodate a partially furled sail. Others, I suppose, don't have any objection and gladly do it. Not all commercially sold furlers are reefing furlers - they are intended for use only fully deployed or fully rolled up, not in-between. I imagine that a home-made furling unit made from schedule 40 PVC pipe does not really have any specifications. I find it odd to talk about the "safety" aspect of utilizing a furler on the one hand and then promote a home-made furler on the other hand. Doesn't reliability, ruggedness, and durability factor into the "safety" equation? PVC pipe isn't exactly known for any of those qualities ....

I agree in regards to the inconvenience of putting on the furler when setting up. There are some flexible furlers that are easier to set up than hanking on sails. They are simply hoisted up with the jib halyard. They fold enough that they can be stored in the cabin. On mine I tie the furler line to the fore stay when I remove it. This pull the line though the tube so that I can use it as a messenger line to pull the fore stay through the next time I need to set up. It takes about 5 minutes to set up.

As far as the strength of the pvc tube, it supported by the fore stay as are most aluminum foils. The load is evenly distributed along the tube and does not rely on bearings in the foil that can chafe the fore stay. I find the pvc furler easier to retrieve than my commercial furler with aluminum foils, only because there is less friction.

I've never seen a commercial furler that was not made to partially deploy. What brand would that be?

 

[bffatcat]

My 2c

Ive got over 50 years of experience some with travelers some without Travelers are mainly to change sail shape when racing As far as the furler goes its useful as a work saver. but
on a 21 ft boat you can probably get along without it and dont forget you have to put a bead on all sails. not that cheap

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Here is an example:

http://tradeonly.harken.com/pdf/Harken-SB_Underdeck-Furling-en.pdf

and here is a discussion:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-...ifference-between-roller-furling-reefing.html

I suspect that most furlers these days are made for reefing, but some older models may not be (the used market). So it pays to be careful with buying the right product for the intended use.

Does a home-made job work for reefing? Who knows? It wouldn't be my recommendation. Like I said, if you want to talk about safety, then why recommend a flimsy home-made option? It seems contradictory to me ...

 

[caguy]

Scott, that flexible hoisting furler is the one that I was talking about. I can see why it is not good for reefing but I think rigid foil furlers, though not ideal, are suited for reefing.
Given that the hoisting furlers are not reefable I would go with the pvc.
They are not as flimsy as you might think. I've had to reef up every time I go to Catalina. As you approach the island the wind pipes up to 20-25 kts suddenly. It has held up nicely. Many of us have used them over the last few years and as far as I know none of us are dead or injured.

 

[txjim]

What furler cannot be reefed?

The Harken small-boat furling systems, for one. Not that people don't use them as such but this leaves the jib in an awful shape. It also can get dicey when furling in high winds if your jib luff wire is not ideally tensioned. Bad things can happen.....

Which is why I'm converting a jib to hank-on for heavy conditions. A top-knotch system would work fine but a half-ass system is a liability. I'm NOT claiming your system falls under that category, simply stating that one has to be careful. I'd dump by furling system for a travler in a second. Easier to rig a downhaul than to fight a flogging jib.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Caguy, it's good to hear ...

that you're not dead! I think it's fine to suggest that there is an option for building a furler instead of purchasing one. It sounds like you are guaranteeing that DavyBones could build his own furler and it would never fail in a circumstance where his life may be in jeapordy due to wind and wave conditions. I don't mean to sound melodramatic, but I wouldn't be advocating safety and then tell a complete stranger to go ahead and build your own plastic furler ... it'll be just as good as any of those products made by Harken, Schaefer, Profurl, Furlex, etc. Did you do all the product testing to make a claim like that? I suppose your trips to Catalina may count in your mind, but maybe you recognize my point. If you left safety out of the argument, I wouldn't have an objection.

 

[bffatcat]

about reefing furlers

todays jibs with the exception of foam luff models usually found on bigger boats are not really ideal for partial rolling . You wind up with part of a sail that was meant to be aft of the luff as the luff itself. This makes for a very ineffective shapeless sail' and stretches out the sail. Go out on a breezy day and pay attention to some of the rolled down jibs. Your gonna see a stretched out area bagging around at the edge of the furler. This means that the jib is blown out and should be replaced

If your out on a breezy day a better Idea is to put one or two slab reefs in the main and leave the jib alone. The boat will sail better and you wont put strain on the sail in an area where its not supposed to be. unfortunately many sailors do not have jiffy reefing or are uncomfortable
going up on deck to put the reef in. I for one never reduce sail by rolling down a jib. If there is too much wind after a double reefed main I will take the main down. As a last resort I will change down to a storm jib.

 

[DavyBones]

Wow guys and gals, thanks so much for all the feedback. I've been trying to get back to reply for a few days now. We are definitely holding off on any major expenses until we know about staying with the boat or not. I've read that in here many times now and think that's a great recommendation.

I wasn't aware that all furlers are not reefing, I'll definitely look more into that when shopping, thank you. I had wondered about if & how sail shape would be affected by reefing one that is not meant for it. Didn't think about stretch at all though!

I am looking at a small Ronstan RF-76 that I saw written about in here and elsewhere on the web, and supposedly some jibs can be easily modified or may already have a usable luff for them. Whether or not for reefing, I still have to learn. I am trying to see a local sail shop this weekend to help determine the state of all mine. What I could gather from what I've learned in here, they seem to be in good shape. The storm jib is near new and was thrown in as part of another deal so I have yet to rig or completely measure it to make sure its proper, but was told it "should be." (for what that's worth) So I guess I can't truly say I do have a storm jib yet, and quite honestly, the idea of a furler came before that storm jib even showed itself. The jib that came with the boat is what I was referring to as the "standard" jib. Please excuse my ignorance and confusion in terms. Lots of "IDKs" & "what-ifs" at this point, I know. I WAS planning to get with a couple local sailors to help shed some light on all this for me, but the season is getting late & the forecast for the weekend may not allow so.

It does have a boom vang, btw, though I have not yet figured out how to use it correctly. I will learn. And as for the "Green Lake" comment, Scott, good eye; I'll be sure to update that though. When I joined I still hadn't bought my Venture 21 yet, and Green Lake is just one of the places I like to Kayak and Fish. ;-) I do wonder which green lake you found though! hahaha Lake St Clair is closest to where she sleeps now, and will most likely be our home most of the time, but yes, with the trailer we will be going anywhere else we can that can handle the sails (and the keel!) from Kent Lake to Ford Lake to Lake Lansing & Stony Creek; all of these have sailing communities present and are simple easy places to sail (when not too weedy like this year). And yes of course the Great Lakes once I actually learn how to sail well enough, hahaha. Cruising to Pelee Island for a long weekend is one of our small fantasies with the boat at the moment.

All in all we are pretty adventurous and aren't afraid of learning the good-ole way. We demand it as a matter of fact, but still look forward to the luxuries too. (furler, auto pilot, cup holders, you know, the important things!) I've got a terrible amount to learn, and welcome it all with open arms. Thanks again all...
-bones-

 

[jepomer]

Fullers are nice to have for the more "casual" sailor. The larger the boat, the more convenient it is to have the fuller. My wife is not comfortable going forward (I enjoy it) regardless of the weather. So that defines our preferred solution for our style of sailing.

Now, if I had multiple sails (and being the scientist/engineer type), I would enjoy using the hank-on foresails (with a downhaul so I could bring the sail down quickly from the cockpit) to experiment with various sail sizes in various winds.

The CDI FF2 I now have does not make sail changes very quick. But since I have only one foresail, it is not an issue.

My Capri 22 does have a traveler. I use it frequently in both higher and lower winds. It can keep the boat flatter in higher winds and induce more heel in lower winds. It is another control device.

Our traveler is mounted in the center of the cockpit. It is not convenient for people but it is just right for controlling the sail.

Do things one step at a time. Boat dollars can add up quickly. But mostly, you want to make sure you enjoy your boat...