Although no signs of a major leak, and not taking on a lot of water, I can never seen to get that last 1" of water out of bilge. Several times since purchasing ODay 19 I've used hand pump followed up with a towel to attempt to get her dry so I could observe exactly where the water is coming from but I can never get her dry despite repeatedly attempting to soak last bit up with towel and wringing it out. I realize that its not uncommon to carry a little water in bilge but if there is a small leak i'd like to attempt to fix. Seems to be related to swing keel position and/or wave action. Any ideas of source? and If within keel well is there a way to inspect and fix? Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
Bilge Water related to Swing Keel?
- Thread starter weh5748
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I really don't know too much about the O'Day 19 to help you on this. My O'Day 222 has a keel/centerboard but the centerboard configuration may be set up a lot different than your 19.
I can't help but to wonder if your leak could be coming in from somewhere else and settling in the bilge.
I can only offer you this suggestion: Pull the boat out of the water if you have a trailer and level the trailer. After the boat's outside hull dries off, put some water in the bilge and see if it leaks out. If no water leaks out of the hull and on to the ground, raise the front of the trailer so that the water can run back toward the stern. Check for leaks. Then try lowering the bow of the boat with your trailer jack and see if it leaks in the bow section.
I would check the cockpit drain hose? It definitely is not a "swing-keel" problem since your boat doesn't have one. The CENTERBOARD is installed pretty much the same as in the 192 and the 222 (as well as later Day Sailers, 1980 and newer) and so the pivot pin does not penetrate the CB trunk, but have you checked around the pipe or hose the the CB pendant leads thru to get from the top of the CB trunk to the cockpit? As I say, the CB pivot is accessed from under the boat, I don't think the screws that hold the retainer plates in place penetrate the hull structure, I believe that they more or less land within the ballast in the bottom of the sort-of "skeg-keel" on the 19. They "may" be leaking through voids in the encapsulated lead ballast and the water could be coming out of a pin-hole in the fiberglass that covers the ballast. I know more about the 19 than Joe.....but still most of my knowledge is somewhat theoretical.
I'm presently chasing a "mystery" leak in my DS II....... like you, I have tried to wipe the inside of the bilge dry to look for the leak..... but still can't find where the water comes from. You have more access to your bilge that I have on my DS II, but I have checked the likely spots.... but can't find the leak! At least I do have one "advantage" over you......... I KNOW the water is coming in from the bilge and not from rain.........being in saltwater, I can use taste to narrow that down. <grin!>
I'd suggest checking the cockpit drain, CB pendant pipe/hose, and as Joe suggests, haul the boat out and after she dries, pour a bit of water (1-2 gallons?) into the bilge and see if it seeps out anywhere. Oh, does the 19 have a "bilge drainplug"? My DS II has one on the transom to drain any water from the bilge after haulout. I know the bilge will fill if that is leaking (I forgot to screw it in one year before launching!) I know mine isn't leaking since the water comes from (or seems to?) forward, maybe near the mast?
I'm presently chasing a "mystery" leak in my DS II....... like you, I have tried to wipe the inside of the bilge dry to look for the leak..... but still can't find where the water comes from. You have more access to your bilge that I have on my DS II, but I have checked the likely spots.... but can't find the leak! At least I do have one "advantage" over you......... I KNOW the water is coming in from the bilge and not from rain.........being in saltwater, I can use taste to narrow that down. <grin!>
I'd suggest checking the cockpit drain, CB pendant pipe/hose, and as Joe suggests, haul the boat out and after she dries, pour a bit of water (1-2 gallons?) into the bilge and see if it seeps out anywhere. Oh, does the 19 have a "bilge drainplug"? My DS II has one on the transom to drain any water from the bilge after haulout. I know the bilge will fill if that is leaking (I forgot to screw it in one year before launching!) I know mine isn't leaking since the water comes from (or seems to?) forward, maybe near the mast?
Thank you both for your insights and suggestions. I will follow up. I've owned 2 larger fixed keel boats and sailed a lot of small centerboard boats but never owned a swing keel (and perhaps according to Sunbird still don't) but assumed from looking at the ODay 19 that this was a swing keel because of the way the keel pulls all the way up into the hull by a line in the cockpit or can be lowered swinging down to point where rectangular "keel/centerboard" projects at an angle aft wards to a depth of 3-4 additional feet. So thats new information ... but I will check the plugs and hoses and definitely do some very thorough investigation when I pull her out which hopefully won't be until October or November.
One other thought - does the leak occur even when the boat is in the water but not sailing? I realize you may be trailering the boat, so you may or may not have checked this. On my O'Day 25, I used to get water in the bilge after a day sailing. I eventually tracked it to the forward thru-hull on the starboard side. It's located about 4" above the waterline and is where the bilge pump drains. On a port tack with the boat heeled over, the thru-hull would be submerged. I eventually learned to put a loop in the hose to prevent water from siphoning back
Not sure what kind of hull penetrations you have on the 19.
Not trying to lecture here, just providing information to clear up an all too common misuse of terms. Let the lesson begin!:dance:
CENTERBOARD is a lightweight board used to create resistance to leeway and aid steering. Basically the same function (directionally) as a keel on a larger boat, but with little to no effect on stability (other than directional) a centerboard is NOT a KEEL although both serve to reduce leeway and maintain directional control. Traditionally, a centerboard pivots to retract, a daggerboard raises vertically to retract. A daggerboard is a type of CB. Kind of the old every square is a rectangle, but not every rectangle is a square.
Swing-Keel would be a type of centerboard that has all of the ballast contained within the swing-keel (most are either made of cast-iron or contain lead ballast) and the keel will weigh several hundred pounds, much too heavy to pull up with a light line like the centerboards on our O'DAYs, rather a winch is required, often a trailer winch is adapted.
A Swing-Keel is also called a "retractable-keel".
O'Day built centerboard, Keel/Centerboard, and fixed-keel boats (shoal, deep-fin and wing). They never built any swing-keel boats. The Mariner and O'DAY 19 are "ballasted Centerboard" boats. The MARINER has 200# of lead in the bilge and a 165# centerboard (not a swing-keel because more ballast is in hull than CB, according to Robie Pierce, former VP of O'DAY).
"Mariner - Is and, always has been, a CENTERBOARD sailboat. Please don't refer to as a 'swing keel'. It's not a keel. It has a weighted
centerboard with two 100# lead pigs glassed either side of the CB trunk.
-Robie Pierce, former O’DAY V.P. (1972-78)"
O'DAY 19 has 300# of lead inside the bilge and the CB weighs a mere 52#. Obviously, no real effect on stability from the CB weight.
So, "swing-keel" is more or less a type of CB, but a CB is not a swing-keel because it usually has very little ballast. A swing-keel requires a winch to raise/lower, a CB usually can be raised/lowered using a light line and no winch (on a small boat anyway......larger K/CB vessels may need a winch due to the size/weight of the CB). In other words, a "swing-keel" is a KEEL and provides the primary stabilizing force to the boat. A centerboard merely provides directional control and prevents (or at least greatly reduces) leeway. A centerboard boat may have ballast inside the boat or in a stub-keel (like the almost ful-length skeg of the 19), but the CB will usually only have enough weight to make it easy to lower.
Here is what O'DAY says: (see attached scan of brochure pages). Note that O'Day was VERY critical of "swing-keel" designs and clearly refers to the 19 as a CENTERBOARD boat.
CENTERBOARD is a lightweight board used to create resistance to leeway and aid steering. Basically the same function (directionally) as a keel on a larger boat, but with little to no effect on stability (other than directional) a centerboard is NOT a KEEL although both serve to reduce leeway and maintain directional control. Traditionally, a centerboard pivots to retract, a daggerboard raises vertically to retract. A daggerboard is a type of CB. Kind of the old every square is a rectangle, but not every rectangle is a square.
Swing-Keel would be a type of centerboard that has all of the ballast contained within the swing-keel (most are either made of cast-iron or contain lead ballast) and the keel will weigh several hundred pounds, much too heavy to pull up with a light line like the centerboards on our O'DAYs, rather a winch is required, often a trailer winch is adapted.
A Swing-Keel is also called a "retractable-keel".
O'Day built centerboard, Keel/Centerboard, and fixed-keel boats (shoal, deep-fin and wing). They never built any swing-keel boats. The Mariner and O'DAY 19 are "ballasted Centerboard" boats. The MARINER has 200# of lead in the bilge and a 165# centerboard (not a swing-keel because more ballast is in hull than CB, according to Robie Pierce, former VP of O'DAY).
"Mariner - Is and, always has been, a CENTERBOARD sailboat. Please don't refer to as a 'swing keel'. It's not a keel. It has a weighted
centerboard with two 100# lead pigs glassed either side of the CB trunk.
-Robie Pierce, former O’DAY V.P. (1972-78)"
O'DAY 19 has 300# of lead inside the bilge and the CB weighs a mere 52#. Obviously, no real effect on stability from the CB weight.
So, "swing-keel" is more or less a type of CB, but a CB is not a swing-keel because it usually has very little ballast. A swing-keel requires a winch to raise/lower, a CB usually can be raised/lowered using a light line and no winch (on a small boat anyway......larger K/CB vessels may need a winch due to the size/weight of the CB). In other words, a "swing-keel" is a KEEL and provides the primary stabilizing force to the boat. A centerboard merely provides directional control and prevents (or at least greatly reduces) leeway. A centerboard boat may have ballast inside the boat or in a stub-keel (like the almost ful-length skeg of the 19), but the CB will usually only have enough weight to make it easy to lower.
Here is what O'DAY says: (see attached scan of brochure pages). Note that O'Day was VERY critical of "swing-keel" designs and clearly refers to the 19 as a CENTERBOARD boat.
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I also had a small amount of water in the bilge of my O'Day 25 centerboard boat only after a sail. I have bilge pumps so it was not a big problem it did bother me so I spent some time trying to figure out where it was comming from. It finnaly made itself apperant when the leak got bad enough to leak when the boat was sitting still in the slip. It was a hairline crack in the tube that the line for the centerboard runs through and was below the waterline. When it first cracked it would only leak when the boat was under sail and had pressure from water movement in the trunk.
Eventually it begain leaking all the time. I sealed it up in the water with one of those 2 part epoxy sticks that set in wet conditions.
I have a DaySailer III (late 80's) that I recently purchased. it spent it's life on cape cod but now is in maine on a lake. Last year I noticed that the inner hull (bilge?) would fill with water when sitting in the slip. We had replaced the self bailer and the hull drain prior to putting it in the water and I am wondering if either of those could be the source of the leak? My brother disagrees about the sail bailer saying that the self bailer shouldn't pass through the inner hull....is that accurate? (please forgive me if I am using improper terminology...i am only just returning to sailing after 25yrs away).
Can I continue to keep it in the water if I make sure to pump out the water or am I risking further damage? Any suggestion as to a reliable solar powered bilge pump?
Other ideas as to where to look for the source of the leak? Could it be from the centerboard pivot...i heard that this is a problem of the Daysailers....?
Thanks for your help.
Can I continue to keep it in the water if I make sure to pump out the water or am I risking further damage? Any suggestion as to a reliable solar powered bilge pump?
Other ideas as to where to look for the source of the leak? Could it be from the centerboard pivot...i heard that this is a problem of the Daysailers....?
Thanks for your help.
Thanks to all especially Sunbird for the wealth of info. Now I need to do some more poking around my 19. The graphic from the O'Day 19 Manual is especially interesting. The major difference I see is the shape of the CB which appears (on mine) more rectangular at the bottom than the one pictured ... it also feels like a lot more than 50 pounds when I pull it up by the line in the cockpit. All this makes me think it is possible that it is a replacement CB or maybe an alternate design. I believe the boat was built in the 70's so thats a lot of years for changes/modifications that might have been necessary. But basically I need to put the diving mask back on and return to the crystal clear waters of Lake George to check out the CB and bottom of the 19. Thanks again.
The centerboard trunk could have a crack in it or perhaps there is a seal for the pivot pin that is worn and leaking.
On the DS III it is possible for a leak to develop around the screws that hold the CB retainer plates to the bottom of hte boat (see pic below, it is a DS II, but the 1980-85 DS II had the same CB set-up as the DS III). The pivot pin itself should not leak as it does not penetrate the skin of the hull or CB trunk. However, it is remotely possible to develop a leak there. My vote would be for those screws leaking.
Things to check (you probably already did, but..)
1) Drainplug in transom (drain for bilge, screws in) is it tight? Good seal around flange? The 1" rubber plug higher up on hte transom is above the waterline at rest (unless cockpit is full of rainwater?) so should not be the source, plus it only penetrates the transom and the inside of the cockpit, no real conection to bilge.
2) Self-Bailer: Not likely to leak into bilge, the "pipe" goes through both the cockpit sole and the hull bottom, theoretically they are sandwiched together as the boat was assembled and will be virtually glued together (no open seam to leak), but it might have developed a small crack.This would not generally fill the bilge in a short time (or even a full week?).
3) Possible (though not real likely) there is a smal lcrack in the CB trunk, however.....that would be more likely to leak under sail than sitting in the slip. Do you always raise the CB at least most of the way while not sailing? If not, then the rocking of the boat in the slip "COULD" result in a crack developing at the forward end of hte CB trunk due to the CB working bac kand forth as the boat rocks. This could also cause wear in hte area of the pivot.
4) Are you sure the water is coming in from underneath? In other words, is it lake water, or rainwater? Check the sealant around the flanges for the 2 inspection ports at the forward end of cockpit.
Those are the "normal" spots on a Day Sailer II or III that could leak. Older models (1971-79) of the DS II have a bolt through the CB trunk to hold hte CB pivot bushing in, that rarely leaks more than a couple drops early in the season, but again......that doesn't aply to your DS III.
On a freshwater lake, you should not have any major, immediate problems caused by this leak as long as you bail the bilge out often (at least weekly, plus before going sailing each time). I would not let this go too long though, since there may be a piece of 3/4" plywood glassed in under the support for the mast step where it rests on hte cuddy "floor". Mine rotted out and I had to replace it.
I have a "mystery" leak in my DS II at the moment, not major....but troublesome still.
Things to check (you probably already did, but..)
1) Drainplug in transom (drain for bilge, screws in) is it tight? Good seal around flange? The 1" rubber plug higher up on hte transom is above the waterline at rest (unless cockpit is full of rainwater?) so should not be the source, plus it only penetrates the transom and the inside of the cockpit, no real conection to bilge.
2) Self-Bailer: Not likely to leak into bilge, the "pipe" goes through both the cockpit sole and the hull bottom, theoretically they are sandwiched together as the boat was assembled and will be virtually glued together (no open seam to leak), but it might have developed a small crack.This would not generally fill the bilge in a short time (or even a full week?).
3) Possible (though not real likely) there is a smal lcrack in the CB trunk, however.....that would be more likely to leak under sail than sitting in the slip. Do you always raise the CB at least most of the way while not sailing? If not, then the rocking of the boat in the slip "COULD" result in a crack developing at the forward end of hte CB trunk due to the CB working bac kand forth as the boat rocks. This could also cause wear in hte area of the pivot.
4) Are you sure the water is coming in from underneath? In other words, is it lake water, or rainwater? Check the sealant around the flanges for the 2 inspection ports at the forward end of cockpit.
Those are the "normal" spots on a Day Sailer II or III that could leak. Older models (1971-79) of the DS II have a bolt through the CB trunk to hold hte CB pivot bushing in, that rarely leaks more than a couple drops early in the season, but again......that doesn't aply to your DS III.
On a freshwater lake, you should not have any major, immediate problems caused by this leak as long as you bail the bilge out often (at least weekly, plus before going sailing each time). I would not let this go too long though, since there may be a piece of 3/4" plywood glassed in under the support for the mast step where it rests on hte cuddy "floor". Mine rotted out and I had to replace it.
I have a "mystery" leak in my DS II at the moment, not major....but troublesome still.
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It may be that your CB has developed a leak and has water trapped inside, that has happened on my DS II, that would make it heavier. The CB is molded in two halves and bonded together with a fiberglass putty "slurry", but basically hollow. The 19 was built from 1979 to 1984, not too many changes over that time from what I've seen (small tinted windows added to cuddy-cabin sides, some minor hardware changes, forward hatch originally clear/transluscent, later gelcoated fiberglass to match deck). I'll see if I have a pic of the CB from a 19 for comparison.
Yes, CB could be waterlogged. Would appreciate a picture of the CB. The forward hatch is translucent ... sort of tinted light brown. I've also been wondering if the way the back stay and main sheet pulley system (sorry I don't have the right terminology) are attached to a triangular piece of stainless aft of boom is normal, the way it was built, or is a later modification. If you happen to have a picture of that 'gear' (the main sheet pulley system w/ jam cleat) as it relates to the boom and back stay that would answer a lot of questions. Thanks for the continuing insights.
Joe, I was going to say that there isn't a pipe on the 19...........good thing I didn't! (see interior pic!) You mention a good place to check for leaks. No pipe on the DS II or DS III, but some owners do report a leak undersail where the line that pulls the CB up exits the CB trunk, too high to be a problem in slip. (There are 2 questions active here, about 2 boats, 19 and DS III)
O'DAY 19 mainsheet was rigged as all O'DAYs 19' to 23' were at that time, see diagram below (diagram is actually a 22, pic is a 19). Kind of a weird setup to me, great because it gets the mainsheet out of the way, but awkward since it is off-center so sail trims differently on port and starboard tacks.
I did find a pic of the O19 Centerbord, but it isn't the best view! All I have is the drawings from the sales brochure, as I posted before. Could be yours was replaced, maybe with a 192 CB?
O'DAY 19 mainsheet was rigged as all O'DAYs 19' to 23' were at that time, see diagram below (diagram is actually a 22, pic is a 19). Kind of a weird setup to me, great because it gets the mainsheet out of the way, but awkward since it is off-center so sail trims differently on port and starboard tacks.
I did find a pic of the O19 Centerbord, but it isn't the best view! All I have is the drawings from the sales brochure, as I posted before. Could be yours was replaced, maybe with a 192 CB?
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Looking at the pipe in that picture, it would be hard to detect a leak in that pipe unless you can cut away some of that enclosure to be able to see the entire pipe to check it out. If I knew for sure that the pendant line pipe was cracked and leaking in there, this is exactly what I would do.
I wouldn't mind the main sheet on the back stay as much as that pig tail connected to the back stay to support the boom. I would change that real quick. The O'Day 19 is a nice looking little boat. They make a perfect trailer sailer, I think.
I wouldn't mind the main sheet on the back stay as much as that pig tail connected to the back stay to support the boom. I would change that real quick. The O'Day 19 is a nice looking little boat. They make a perfect trailer sailer, I think.
Joe, I'd keep the pig-tail to support the boom, but use it only as a "secondary" support.....I'd add a real topping-lift to hold the boom up while raising/lowering the sail and use the pig-tail to more or less "restrain" the boom only while the sail is furled.It works better than the mainsheet alone to keep the boom "centered" and prevent it from swinging (I agree the boom doesn't move much) while moored or motoring. Many "big-boats" do it that way (like 30'+) and that was how we used it for the last 18 years we had our CAL 21. Scary to think about it.......but we really did use the pig-tail as a topping lift for the first 20 years we had the CAL! You learn to only raise sail pointed into the wind (especially if solo!) and to run REAL quick from mast to backstay to release the boom!
Thanks!
Thanks Sunbird, I was hoping to hear from you...my next call was to Rudy at D&R Marine....
Thanks Sunbird, I was hoping to hear from you...my next call was to Rudy at D&R Marine....
Re: Thanks!
As the originator of the thread 'bilge water related to swing keel', I'm very happy to report that it seems the leak and perpetual bilge water was related to the cockpit drain tubing which runs from low point aft in cockpit thru the inner boat/bilge before exiting into lake. I reached thru access hole above drain and felt tube which was wet on outside with boat rocking in slip. Dried it off and it became wet again. So I corked it from outside and went to work disconnecting and replacing with a piece of 1" inside diameter clear tubing. Took some patience because of difficulty involved in working 12" inside a small hole with hand tools where you kind of have to choose between seeing and working with one hand to loosen/tighten pipe clamps. but it seems to have paid off. I will check again this morning but think leak is fixed. Thanks to all. Unrelated to leak, I also purchased topping lift to solve the pigtail vs crashing boom issue.
As the originator of the thread 'bilge water related to swing keel', I'm very happy to report that it seems the leak and perpetual bilge water was related to the cockpit drain tubing which runs from low point aft in cockpit thru the inner boat/bilge before exiting into lake. I reached thru access hole above drain and felt tube which was wet on outside with boat rocking in slip. Dried it off and it became wet again. So I corked it from outside and went to work disconnecting and replacing with a piece of 1" inside diameter clear tubing. Took some patience because of difficulty involved in working 12" inside a small hole with hand tools where you kind of have to choose between seeing and working with one hand to loosen/tighten pipe clamps. but it seems to have paid off. I will check again this morning but think leak is fixed. Thanks to all. Unrelated to leak, I also purchased topping lift to solve the pigtail vs crashing boom issue.
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