Set-Up for a CDI FF2 ??

[Cruiser1]

Besides calling my insurance agent, I guess I'll try to clear this up with CDI tomorrow. Get ready for a new forestay!

Have just noticed this page: http://www.csjohnson.com/marinecatalog/z00044.htm. Perhpas we are getting a bit confused in terminolgy as it looks like some of what we often refer to as 'shackles' are officially 'rigging toggles' (flat cross section) - perhaps the term 'shackle' is restricted to the round cross section ones like this https://www.whitworths.com.au/main_itemdetail.asp?item=76133&search123=shackle&intAbsolutePage=1.

Although the CDI diagram shows the use of 'double jaw toggles', as Doug says an ordinary shackle is probably OK as it would allow the 2-way movement. Perhaps 'rigging toggles' have a higher breaking strain relative to length than the ordinary round cross-section shackles - not sure??

 

[Cruiser1]

..............That head stay lever is not mine, but it looks to me like part of a shroud adjuster. My boat has those for the shrouds, and the backstay. I was thinking of trying that myself, less costly than a Johnson Lever.

Sorry to attribute that adjuster to you Doug but feel free to take any glory you want from the attribution.

Yes, I am afraid I am not very observant. I just went out and had a look at my side stay adjusters and they are a similar profile. The problem in using one of these is that the centres of the holes on the forestay chain plate are 22mm apart and the holes in the stay adjusters do not corresspond and would be difficult to modify without compromising the strength of the adjuster. This Ronstan stay adjuster http://www.ronstan.com.au/marine5/product.asp?ProdNo=RF2330#Applications also looks very similar.

However the ones in the photo appears to have the closed in part further back (or else, with the one in the photo, the closed in section on the one side has been cut back a bit) than the standard Ronstan or M26C adjuster. Ronstan do not appear to give any SWL for this fitting - I would want to know it was good for at least 1,500kg before going that way.

I guess it would be easy enough to have an adjuster fabricated from 2 lengths of say 5 x 20mm stainless bar with two holes drilled near the bottom end at 22mm centres and some straps welded across top and bottom to connect same.

 

[jjsbiggs]

eye jaw toggle

This is what you should have at the end of the cable which will allow the cable to move left and right and also forward and aft. Hope that is a bit clearer.


http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wc...toreNum=50045&subdeptNum=50088&classNum=50095

 

[Cruiser1]

This is what you should have at the end of the cable which will allow the cable to move left and right and also forward and aft. Hope that is a bit clearer.


http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wc...toreNum=50045&subdeptNum=50088&classNum=50095

Yes, I came to the same conclusion although bit of a price difference between here and US https://www.whitworths.com.au/main_itemdetail.asp?item=71041&search123=toggle&intAbsolutePage=1. Price difference is usually the other way around. Perhaps there is something different in the specification although neither supplier nominate a SWL.

 

[justsomeguy]

I think Paul was probably refering to the boom goosneck on the mast getting broken when the mast came down - that's the one that hand the aluminium rivets - reminds me I must check mine sometime and at least put in some S/S or monel rivets. Yes, definitely a bolt through the hounds!!

Oops, the word "gooseneck" didn't leap out at me.

That makes much more sense than rivets in standing rigging.

 

[Chris & Lenore]

A comment about "two way movement" where the CDI attaches at the top...
A standard "terminal" pinned to the hounds with a bolt that has a half inch of unthreaded barrel leaves enough space for sufficient side to side movement.
This was suggested by a rigging shop and had worked well on Teliki for over five years.
Definitely inspect the top sewage connection!! Sailed Teliki for a season before checking (since it was a pita to inspect). There were only three strands left!
The DPO had used a bolt that tightened snug and didn't allow movement at the top - the forestay was only one season old...

What concerns me more is the amount of movement at the bottom when furling. We have a Johnson lever which places the drum about 10 inches off the deck. With the small drum spindle size of the CDI it gets yanked sideways quite a bit when furling. Haven't noticed any wear, fraying, cracking, etc. but there is a lot f stress there.

Can't get rid of the Johnson lever ( this was suggested) as I don't think I could get the fuller pinned without it. A properly tuned rig is under a lot of tension.

Chris

 

[Chris & Lenore]

Here is a pic showing how high the Johnson leaver places the furling drum above the deck. There is a shorter lever available but it's not rated for use on a forestay.
You can imagine the sideways pull when furling Teliki's 135 in a 20 kt Lake Erie wind.

Chris

 

[justsomeguy]

A comment about "two way movement" where the CDI attaches at the top...
A standard "terminal" pinned to the hounds with a bolt that has a half inch of unthreaded barrel leaves enough space for sufficient side to side movement.
This was suggested by a rigging shop and had worked well on Teliki for over five years.
Definitely inspect the top sewage connection!! Sailed Teliki for a season before checking (since it was a pita to inspect). There were only three strands left!
The DPO had used a bolt that tightened snug and didn't allow movement at the top - the forestay was only one season old...

-snip-

Chris

Well, I've got plenty of range of motion in that regard.

 

[Sumner]

A toggle...

(used at top)

(used at bottom)

.. is so cheap, why not put it on? We have one at the top and the bottom (shown above). The bottom one is under ..

... the Johnson lever, although the Johnson lever itself acts somewhat like a toggle. I'm not sure, but our Johnson lever might be the next larger one than Chris's (model #14-210). I chose it as we also increased the size of the forestay to 5/32 and the next smaller is rated for 1/8 th.

Adding the Johnson lever is one of the better rigging deals we have done. Like Chris mentioned it is hard to tension the rig properly without one unless you close the turnbuckle after pinning the forestay and that is a pain with a furler. Now we just pin it and snap the lever over and pin it. Simple, fast and you have a tight rig. Ruth loves it as now we can see under the genoa.

Rigging only made up the new forestay for less than $50 with the rotary swagged fittings at both ends. The CDI and Johnson lever combination ended up being longer than the old forestay. Since this was all longer I installed new hounds up the mast....

.... up the mast, top arrow, and left the old hounds and forestay below, bottom arrow. That forestay can be pinned to the anchor bow roller mount if needed and a hank-on sail still used behind the furler. We haven't tried that yet though. I made up new shrouds at the same time and moved the lower ones up to the new hound for safety. Most of this mod is here....

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/macgregor2/rigging-24.html

Sum

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[justsomeguy]

I probably have enough threads available in the turnbuckle to add a small toggle. I just don't see the advantage yet. Hard-headed, I guess.

 

[Sumner]

I probably have enough threads available in the turnbuckle to add a small toggle. I just don't see the advantage yet. Hard-headed, I guess.

Since the toggle rotates in 2 axis it allows movement in any direction and it takes place at the toggle itself. There will be no chance of bending the forestay at its end and possible breakage of the strands.

We bought ours from riggingonly.com ...

https://www.riggingandhardware.com/c-654-eye-jaw.aspx

https://www.riggingandhardware.com/c-654-eye-jaw.aspx?pagenum=2

Ours are 5/16 since they match the larger forestay size, but the 1/4 would most likely be what most would use with a 1/8th forestay,

Sum

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[Doug J]

I probably have enough threads available in the turnbuckle to add a small toggle. I just don't see the advantage yet. Hard-headed, I guess.

You have been hard to convince! Maybe there has been some confusion with regard to terminology. I suggested a D Shackle previously, which to me seems to be very insignificant cost wise to you, and would fulfill the manufacturers recommendation, which really is just good rigging practice.

D Shackle, similar to what others have shown as toggles.

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wc...toreNum=50045&subdeptNum=50046&classNum=50050

 

[Chris & Lenore]

There is another advantage to the Johnson lever - often overlooked...
It makes adjusting your rigging a snap - no need to spend money replacing side stays with turnbuckles.
Simply slack the rig with the Johnson lever, move the sliders a position one way or the other, re-tension and check the effect.
You can tune the rig in minutes...

I checked and I do have the same lever as Sumner (our forestay diameter isthe same as his too - assumed it was stock).

Chris

 

[Sumner]

There is another advantage to the Johnson lever - often overlooked...
It makes adjusting your rigging a snap - no need to spend money replacing side stays with turnbuckles.
Simply slack the rig with the Johnson lever, move the sliders a position one way or the other, re-tension and check the effect.
You can tune the rig in minutes...

I checked and I do have the same lever as Sumner (our forestay diameter isthe same as his too - assumed it was stock).

Chris

Yep good points about the Johnson lever. We really like ours. Got it from Defender, not a stocked item at the time, but they got it to us pretty quick. We have all of the pins and fittings associated with the forestay sized at 5/16th now so that hopefully there are no 'weak links'. Probably overkill, but I feel better.

I think the stock forestays were 1/8th inch, so the PO might of changed it out,

Sum

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[Paul Brinkley]

justsomeguy and cruiser1- My hounds, like those on all S's I've seen, are through-bolted. The plate on the mast that the gooseneck connects to, like those of all S's I've seen, are pop riveted. That connection was still tight before my accident. If the plate had been bolted on, or put on with stronger rivets, I would have had damage to either or both the mast and boom when they came down. A closed-end aluminum pop rivet always retains the pin, so the shear strength is probably close to that of a solid aluminum rivet. Works for me! -Paul

 

[Cruiser1]

...... If the plate had been bolted on, or put on with stronger rivets, I would have had damage to either or both the mast and boom when they came down.................

Thanks Paul, some more food for thought there I guess - always something new to think about .

 

[Cruiser1]

....It makes adjusting your rigging a snap - no need to spend money replacing side stays with turnbuckles....
I checked and I do have the same lever as Sumner (our forestay diameter isthe same as his too - assumed it was stock).
Chris

........ We have all of the pins and fittings associated with the forestay sized at 5/16th now so that hopefully there are no 'weak links'. Probably overkill, but I feel better.........

Chris & Sumner, I think you guys have finally convinced me to stop playing around and looking for cheaper ways out (even if temporary). Looks like I need to get the boat back on the water as quickly as I can this week, in oder to satisfy the desire to sail, and then get it back home and start working on replacing all the shrouds, stays and fittings using a 5/32" forestay and 14-210 Johnson Lever..........then piece of mind.

Just checked specs on wire and levers:
Current Upper and lower side stays 5/32" - listed as 1,497 breaking strain
Current Forestay 1/8" - listed as 945kg breakiing strain
Johnson Lever Model 14-205 - listed SWL 453kg
Johnson Lever Model 14-210 - listed SWL 725kg

Doesn't look like you guys are overdoing it - choice looks pretty easy to me .

 

[Cruiser1]

The CDI site say "you may NOT use a 3-piece Navtec turnbuckle" .............. mine appears to be Navtec part no. 673-1/4-3 on the Navtec website as follows: http://www.americanriggingsupply.com/Navtec_Turnbuckles.pdf . The barrel is stamp on the middle bar with 'Navtec' on one side and the letter 'A' on the other side - no other ID markings.

I am unsure weather CDI mean 'don't use a Navtec turnbuckle' or 'don't use a 3-piece turnbuckle' and in either case I cannot undestand why?

Just for the record I asked CDI about my Navtec turnbuckle and they said it is fine to use. Apparently there was/is? one Navtec model around that did not fit inside the FF2 furler drum - hence the comment in their July 2006 edition of the "Installation /Operating Instructions" currently on their website.

 

[Cruiser1]

How much tension is needed on luff ??

Well just about there. Have the 150 genoa fitted to the furler OK and everything looks good. The luff was about a foot longer than the luff on the old standard jib but still have about 1-2" of length left on the luff foil - so looks good.

With the old headsail the layard was only tightened by hand with a clip clipping onto the eye shackle on the drum. I actually found it impossible to get enough tension on the luff to unclip it and had to screw the pin out of the shackle in order to release the luff.

I decided to put a 6-strand downhaul on the new set-up in order to get better and easier luff tension but now I am wondering if one can overtighten the luff ?? Just concerned that overtightening may buckle the luff extrusion. How do other go about this?

Photos of old and new set-up attached.

 

[justsomeguy]

If you start seeing creases or ripples in the sail parallel to the luff, you're too tight. But I doubt that you could damage the foil in this way.

It looks like that cotter pin locking the foil/drum will chew up your sail quickly. Temporary?

Edit- After re-reading your post, the darker photo seems to have the sail tack up above where the cotter would damage your sail.