Jib telltales

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Quoddy

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Apr 1, 2009
241
Hunter 260 Maine
How do I get them all flying right?
I have a row of telltales about 2’ up from the foot extending back towards the leech. This is so when rolled, they will still work. Also, I have one on the leech.
Sailing close to the wind, in medium wind, not reefed, 110 stock Doyle sail. The leeward ones are flat, the windward ones are drooping, but the leech one is going around back to leeward. To get the windwards flat, I would trim or head down, but this would make the leech one go to lee even more. It seems the leech is hooked. I don’t have inboard outboard fairlead adjustment. In fact I don’t have any. If I could move the fairlead back, I suppose it would flatten, but that would add twist.Barber haul out? Any ideas?
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
First thing to check is the forestay tension ... as what you describe is typical of a too loose forestay (adjusted by backstay tension) which causes the jib to be 'too full' (windward mid cord tales drooping), draft aft, and with the leech hooked up to weather (leech tales pointing to leeward).
Alternate way to 'shape' the jib is to apply increased halyard tension (may jam a 'roller furler').

Here's a link on how to get proper forestay tension to match the curved shape of the luff ... by adjusting backstay tension:
http://s1086.photobucket.com/albums/j449/svAquila/?action=view&current=MatchingLuffHollow.gif


If your browser has a difficult time in reading the above file PM me and I will send a .pdf of the same to your eMail address.
 
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Quoddy

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Apr 1, 2009
241
Hunter 260 Maine
Thanks

Thanks for ideas on what to look for. If others are interested, I Goggled “luff hollow” and PDF version was at the top of the list.
 
Jan 19, 2010
12,553
Hobie 16 & Rhodes 22 Skeeter Charleston
I just finished reading this book

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1898660670...vpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&ref=pd_sl_65v9ph38oa_b

Sail and Rig Tuning...

And one thing they said that seemed counter intuitive to me is that if you are pointing high, you need to lessen the halyard tension until you just start to see horizontal wrinkles in the sail ... then tighten it until they just disappear. This supposedly makes a sharper entry. Conversely if you tighten the jib halyard you will move the draft aft, make a rounder entry (more power) but won't be able to point as high. I'll confess this seems backwards to my thinking and I have zero first-hand observations to add but thought I'd toss this on the pile and see where it goes. At the very least, you can play with your halyard tension until you get your tell tales to do what you want them to do.
 
Jan 19, 2010
12,553
Hobie 16 & Rhodes 22 Skeeter Charleston
If your browser has a difficult time in reading the above file PM me and I will send a .pdf of the same to your eMail address.
RichH

I would enjoy a copy as well... ;)

r
 
Jan 19, 2010
12,553
Hobie 16 & Rhodes 22 Skeeter Charleston
Rich

That is a great article.... and now I think I understand why Dedekam suggests slacking the jib halyard in a hard blow. If you have the halyard too tight, you essentially put more slack in your forstay.. which will move the draft aft and create all of those problems with luff hollow expressed in this article. Make sense. THANKS!
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
Id disagree with slacking a halyard in a blow as the 'sag' will increase, unless of course the slacking of the halyard is accompanied by (roller) reefing a headsail.

In a blow, I find the 'best' is to use 'LESS' jibsheet pressure/tension.

In a blow, the 'usual' is to sheet in 'harder' which will cause MORE forestay sag. This can easily be 'visualized' if one has an installed 'luff stripe' as I have listed in that article. Also in a 'blow' you really have to OPEN the 'slot distance' (the distance between the leech of the jib and where the pt. of max. draft occurs in the mainsail) ... OR switch to jib that has lots more 'leech curve' cut into it or just a 'smaller LP' jib ... like a 'blade' jib.
 
Jan 19, 2010
12,553
Hobie 16 & Rhodes 22 Skeeter Charleston
Id disagree with slacking a halyard in a blow as the 'sag' will increase, unless of course the slacking of the halyard is accompanied by (roller) reefing a headsail.

In a blow, I find the 'best' is to use 'LESS' jibsheet pressure/tension.

In a blow, the 'usual' is to sheet in 'harder' which will cause MORE forestay sag. This can easily be 'visualized' if one has an installed 'luff stripe' as I have listed in that article. Also in a 'blow' you really have to OPEN the 'slot distance' (the distance between the leech of the jib and where the pt. of max. draft occurs in the mainsail) ... OR switch to jib that has lots more 'leech curve' cut into it or just a 'smaller LP' jib ... like a 'blade' jib.
So I'm imagining the effect on the mast rake and bend ... Tell me if my thinking is correct here...

If I crank down hard on the jib halyard, I can imagine raking the mast forward and adding slack to the forestay... this can be countered by tightening the backstay. Sheeting will flatten my headsail.. a good thing in a blow and it will pull on the forestay and cause the rake to move forward and slacken my forestay... (bad?). And again, this can be countered by adjusting the backstay tension...

It would seem that you would want to tighten your backstay in a blow and loosen it some in lighter air...I don't have backstay adjustments but I can tighten my forestay using the shrouds... but that is accomplished with turn buckles (not very easy to do on the fly). So for a simple rig like mine, I guess I want to make sure my forestay tension is adequate and then make adjustments using halyard tension, sheet tension and jib size. Hmmm... this thread has got me thinking about adding a simple running backstay setup. I could then pull the running backstay taught in a blow.
 
Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
I think you need to be aware that a poorly tuned rig is not going to perform as well as a well tuned one. As will using a light wind sail in a hurricane. Some of these "strategies" are used to overcome a poorly tuned rig.
Better I'm thinking to just tune the rig then apply the normal sail trim procedures.
I guess that if you just got de-masted and built a jury rig mast this is useful info. I'm not seeing the day to day use though.
The sail maker designed the sail to work in a specific wind range and cut the sail to the correct luft hollow for a correctly tuned forestay. Over cranking the jib halyard is a band-aid not a solution. Mess with the backstay to change the mainsail shape not the jib. The two work together though as making the mainsail flatter (more backstay tension and mast bend) also tighten the forestay and take out some of the sag. But the sail maker already incorporated that into the mix of 10,000 things he juggles to make a great sail plan. Which makes the point to always buy sails from the same manufacturer as the 10,000 thinks one sail maker juggles may not be the same 10,000 things another does or in the same fashion.
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
So I'm imagining the effect on the mast rake and bend ... Tell me if my thinking is correct here...

If I crank down hard on the jib halyard, I can imagine raking the mast forward and adding slack to the forestay... this can be countered by tightening the backstay. Sheeting will flatten my headsail.. a good thing in a blow and it will pull on the forestay and cause the rake to move forward and slacken my forestay... (bad?). And again, this can be countered by adjusting the backstay tension...

It would seem that you would want to tighten your backstay in a blow and loosen it some in lighter air...I don't have backstay adjustments but I can tighten my forestay using the shrouds... but that is accomplished with turn buckles (not very easy to do on the fly). So for a simple rig like mine, I guess I want to make sure my forestay tension is adequate and then make adjustments using halyard tension, sheet tension and jib size. Hmmm... this thread has got me thinking about adding a simple running backstay setup. I could then pull the running backstay taught in a blow.
Both of your boats are simple rigged masthead rigs (if I remember the V222 correctly) and you really dont want to be raking the mast unless absolutely necessary, especially on-the-fly. Having running backstays on these boats I would offer would add unecessary complication.
"It would seem that you would want to tighten your backstay in a blow and loosen it some in lighter air" ... I totally agree and in super light winds I'll sometimes have the sail just 'up' and just enough halyard tension to keep it 'up' ... for a more flatter 'entry shape' (roundness) of the luff to lessen 'separation stalls'.
A sailmaker cut the jibs for the 'typical cruising' boats expecting about 15% tension in the forestay wire for sailing in 12-15kts of wind and 1-2ft. of 'chop' ... when over 15kts and with full sails up, then you should think about applying more backstay tension, less backstay tension in 'light' winds.

Bending the mast will flatten mainsail ... and rarely will bending cause the mast to be raked because the position of maximum draft will not change, just the amount of draft ... proper forestay/backstay tension will keep the mast top in reasonable proper fore/aft position, on 'cruising' type boats (see below note ***). Fore/aft max. draft adjustment is by use of the halyard tension or cunningham tension or both (although when a cunningham is applied tooo taught sometimes a 'girt' / a crease-like shape will form at along the luff - waaaaay too tight cunningham! ).
The 'amount' of draft is controlled by the outhaul (or mast bending) on a mainsail ... the amount of draft on jib is controlled by the position of the fairlead car and the amount of sheet tension vs. the amount of forestay tension - meaning, the harder you sheet in a jib the more backstay/forestay tension is needed in 'blammo' conditions.

Cranking down hard on any sail's halyard will cause the draft to move forward and will cause the forward shape of the luff to become 'more rounded' and cause the leech to flatten or 'open' / sag off to leeward. Conversely, easing up on the jib halyard will cause the draft to move further aft and allow 'less rounded' shape of the luff while causing the leech to begin to 'cup up' to windward.

More Sheeting pressure on the jib will cause more 'sag' in the wire ...
Adjusting / having correct backstay tension will control the SAG in the forestay wire (and with the sail shape results as previously discussed).



Note *** on boats with 'bendy' spars, the top of the mast may move aft as much as 3-4+ ft. aft because of mast bending but these are boats that usually also have a means to 'rake-on-the-fly' and are usually extreme fractional rigs with specially tapered masts and with a powerful backstay adjustment system already built in and have a means to quickly and radically lengthen / shorten the forestay and backstay, etc. .... definitely not a 'simple' rig configuration but a quite complicated & expensive 'racing machine'.
 
Jan 19, 2010
12,553
Hobie 16 & Rhodes 22 Skeeter Charleston
Thanks Rich

I don't think I want to bother with a complicated rig but I do think that I now understand enough to eek out an extra tenth of a knot from my sails using the controls I have.
 
Jul 1, 2009
221
Catalina 310 Sydney-Pittwater
RichH
In a blow said:
Some time ago I tried out how much sail my boat could/should carry in stronger wind conditions.

On a beam reach in up to 28kts wind with shortened (furling) main and full 135 jib, she was still heeling a bit too much. My crew, an experienced sailor, suggested to let the jib sheet out in the gusts. I thought that a tight sheet would make for a flatter sail in those conditions, whilst letting the sheet out would make it fuller and make the boat heel further. (The fairlead was at its rearmost adjustment.) Unless he meant to let the sail almost flap? Unfortunately, we did not get around to discussing the subject further or try his suggestion.

According to your theory, we should have eased the sheets?
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
RichH
In a blow said:
Some time ago I tried out how much sail my boat could/should carry in stronger wind conditions.

On a beam reach in up to 28kts wind with shortened (furling) main and full 135 jib, she was still heeling a bit too much. My crew, an experienced sailor, suggested to let the jib sheet out in the gusts. I thought that a tight sheet would make for a flatter sail in those conditions, whilst letting the sheet out would make it fuller and make the boat heel further. (The fairlead was at its rearmost adjustment.) Unless he meant to let the sail almost flap? Unfortunately, we did not get around to discussing the subject further or try his suggestion.

According to your theory, we should have eased the sheets?
For me, there are several thing going on simultaneously when in high wind conditions that will dictate what to do and how all these factors 'converge' with respect to 'performance', etc.
1. Rig tension and wire 'stretch' -- especially the forestay
2. Sheeting angles of the Jib relative to its sail area.
3. The "hull speed" of the boat .... your Hull Speed is ~ 7kts.
4. Skid to leeward, especially noted when near or above a beam reach relative to the amount of heeling.
5. Sea state

Forestay stretch will cause the jib to 'power up' by the draft becoming more aft which tends to cause the leech to 'cup up' and which causes the slot to close.
(Disregarding adjusting the fairlead cars) - the more jib sheet tension, the greater effect on forestay sag and more 'power-up' shape changes. Easing the sheet will cause less forestay sag, allows the leech to 'open' or become more 'flat' and a more draft forward shape ... with the result of increased speed (up to the limit of hull speed) and less heeling. Generally on most boats the helm pressure will increase when the forestay is over-stretched and you will start to notice that the wake is no longer coming almost straight off the stern -- the boat is now 'skidding'. Easing the jib sheet will put less strain on the forestay, so your crew was probably correct, especially if he/she was watching the increased forestay sag and draft stripe on the jib.

The larger the jib, especially when the clew is waaaay outboard, will no longer be able to correctly be sheeted and will develop a 'large' smooth curve in the foot of the sail and the jib lower panels will be 'over trimmed' (leech in the lower panels again 'cupped up') causing artificially greater draft ..... causes more 'powered up' shape for more heel. The lower panel draft stripe will usually show if the jib is 'too big' or needs a 'jockey pole' or 'reaching strut' to hold the foot flatter and the clew 'out' --- the draft stripe 'should' be showing a 'flattish' leech section. Again, perhaps your crew saw this 'full' shape to the leech and therefore suggested less jib sheet pressure ... so the boat could 'stand up' a bit better with less heel / and less 'skid'.

Once you go much above 'hull speed' the bow and stern wave formation will tend to hold back the boat from going any faster although the boat may be intermittently 'surfing' or even beginning to 'plane'. However on a keel boat once you approach or exceed 'hull speed' the excess power required will simply cause more heeling, more forestay sag and increasing helm pressure, especially if the keel & rudder begin to lose their 'bite' because of the aggressive heel angle. A good indicator that you have too much sail area up when at or above hull speed is whats commonly known' as a 'death wobble' .... the beginnings of noticeable oscilations or 'yawing' of the boat that portend that increased speed can result in a broach ... or even 'tripping over' the keel (broaching to windward !!!) if the steering isnt quite precise so that the oscilations are 'dampened' by the helmsman. The yawing can be accompanied by noticeable stretching of the forestay wire during the yawing oscilations ... helping to adversely turn the boat.
I generally when encountering 'yawing' at above hull speed also check the action/direction of the stern/rudder wake and if starting to feel the oscilations as increasing/decreasing helm pressure .... I suspect 'death wobble' and then further shorten sail or ease the sheets, etc. and carry a fisherman's reef (luffing at the front of the sail and with the leeches still drawing), etc. etc. etc.

Sea state conditions have a great effect on how the forestay, etc. are performing. In relatively flat water (near shore) ~30 kts on a beam reach with 'full up' can be quite exhilerating .... known where I sail as a "Nantucket Sleighride". But if the waves arent perpendicular to the wind, arent 'regular' or coming at you 'from all over the map' and with wave on top of wave on top of swell ... then of course its time to shorten down because the mast top will be oscillating back and forth yielding variable output from the sails, etc.

So although I wasnt onboard, it seems that your crew probably noticed that large jib was overtrimmed at the foot, increased powered up full drafted shape (because of the forestay sag) and with a 'cupped to weather' leech, noticed the increased heel without increase in speed ... and simply suggested that the boat could probably go faster and more upright with slightly eased jib sheets.

FWIW ... in such conditions its usually better to sail with a 'blade jib' (high aspect, full hoist, short LP) so you dont have to 'overtwist' (can lead to sudden/surprise 'power-ups') to keep good control, have better sheeting angles (flatter and more constant jib shape), less forestay sag ... and can always 'blade out' the 'blade-jib' by simply easing the sheet. In high winds the 'blade' has an advantage because it keeps the 'so called' slot (between the leech of jib and the pt. of max. draft in the main) 'more open' / less 'choked'.
 
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Jul 1, 2009
221
Catalina 310 Sydney-Pittwater
RichH


RichH
Many thanks for your extensive reply, pointing out the complexities involved. Really appreciate your taking the time to address my query in so much detail. Shall try your suggestions in suitable winds and once the debris from our recent rains has cleared a bit. Had to cut my sailing short today, as it became too much of an obstacle course around floating logs etc.

I also enjoyed your description of the ‘death wobble’. I do tend to reef both sails a bit earlier now, to avoid overstraining the rigging and since I mostly sail singlehanded. At the time we actually sailed her a bit like a dinghy, before reefing.
 
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