Antifreeeze won't go in, Part 2

[Deadline]

Monday I posted my lament below and got several responses.

On my Yanmar 2GM20F I couldn't get the antifreeze to siphon in.
Funneled it correctly to T-valve in the raw water intake line.
Perhaps a half a gallon slowly went through in 20 minutes.
Tried opening the valve to boost the flow, which worked before.

The engine was warmed up, but only to 120 degrees.
That doesn't matter because it has to cylce regardless.

Mine's a 320, where the exhaust pipe is below the water line.
So I can't tell if water is actually getting pumped out.
Finally stoped for fear of destroying the (new) impeller.

It must be pumping water, since I've run the boat lots.
But it's crazy to imagine the engine going without raw water.
Gravity and the water pump should suck it through, right?
I'm checking to see if the raw water intake lines are plugged.
Otherwise, I'm flummoxed. Any help appreciated. Thanks.

Best I could figure was that it was an airlock in the line.
That likley happened while replacing the impeller.
Today I tried all over again, avoiding the airlock.
Warmed up the engine to 150 degrees, ran 2000 rpm.
Pink went in, but ever soooooooo slowly.
Required opening the thru hull to suck the pink.
Yet it should have gone in regardless.
Yard had no explanation for why. Any ideas?
In any case, I got three gallons in.

 

[JST123]

When you reinstalled the new impeller did you install it with the impeller vanes in the correct direction and with a lubricate? Sounds like a pump issue...

 

[Robert 47]

I am with JST, if you installed the new impeller correctly you should not have any issues. I to have a "T" valve between the raw water intake filter and the water pump. If you do not have anti freeze to the siphon point in the filter, you will not get any fluid moving throught the system. I devised a set up that allows me to pour anti freeze into the "T" with a garden hose and this allows the anti freeze to flow through the engine. I just did this last saturday on our Hunter 31 with the same engine, and will only take about 1 gallon of anti freeze. You will see it come out the transom of the boat. Then shut it down. You have plenty of anti freeze in the system. When I disconnect the garden hose off the "T", there is anti freeze that will spill out. Hope this will help.

 

[Maine Sail]

Monday I posted my lament below and got several responses.

On my Yanmar 2GM20F I couldn't get the antifreeze to siphon in.
Funneled it correctly to T-valve in the raw water intake line.
Perhaps a half a gallon slowly went through in 20 minutes.
Tried opening the valve to boost the flow, which worked before.

The engine was warmed up, but only to 120 degrees.
That doesn't matter because it has to cylce regardless.

Mine's a 320, where the exhaust pipe is below the water line.
So I can't tell if water is actually getting pumped out.
Finally stoped for fear of destroying the (new) impeller.

It must be pumping water, since I've run the boat lots.
But it's crazy to imagine the engine going without raw water.
Gravity and the water pump should suck it through, right?
I'm checking to see if the raw water intake lines are plugged.
Otherwise, I'm flummoxed. Any help appreciated. Thanks.

Best I could figure was that it was an airlock in the line.
That likley happened while replacing the impeller.
Today I tried all over again, avoiding the airlock.
Warmed up the engine to 150 degrees, ran 2000 rpm.
Pink went in, but ever soooooooo slowly.
Required opening the thru hull to suck the pink.
Yet it should have gone in regardless.
Yard had no explanation for why. Any ideas?
In any case, I got three gallons in.

Can you explain, in greater detail, how you were sicking it into the engine..?

 

[Warren Milberg]

One thing is for sure, there is no "right or wrong" direction to install the impeller in a Yanmar 2GM20F raw water pump. As long as the impeller is seated all the way on the shaft, and the gasket makes a seal with the water pump cover, it makes no difference which way the blades are pointing when you close up the pump. As soon as you hit start on the engine, the blades of the impeller will sort themselves out with the first revolution of the pump. All you need do to prove this is to open the pump, install the impeller the "wrong" way and then turn the pump pulley by hand and you'll see the that the blades turn to the "right" direction immediately with no damage. I once discussed with very point with Nigel Calder who also stated that the impeller blades had to be installed in the "right" direction. He subsequently admitted he was mistaken....

 

[Maine Sail]

One thing is for sure, there is no "right or wrong" direction to install the impeller in a Yanmar 2GM20F raw water pump. As long as the impeller is seated all the way on the shaft, and the gasket makes a seal with the water pump cover, it makes no difference which way the blades are pointing when you close up the pump. As soon as you hit start on the engine, the blades of the impeller will sort themselves out with the first revolution of the pump. All you need do to prove this is to open the pump, install the impeller the "wrong" way and then turn the pump pulley by hand and you'll see the that the blades turn to the "right" direction immediately with no damage. I once discussed with very point with Nigel Calder who also stated that the impeller blades had to be installed in the "right" direction. He subsequently admitted he was mistaken....

What people fail to recognize is that when a high compression diesel shuts down the last sputter is often associated with a little back spin. Very often I open pumps and the impeller vanes are backwards to the direction the engine turns due to back spin during shut down.. As Warren said, installation of the impeller simply can't be done wrong. Once the engine fires up the simply self align.

Deadline likely has a worn pump body, this happens, or is somehow sucking air into the system while trying to winterize. Our boat, and most I winterize, will suck a full five gallon bucket of antifreeze dry in about 60 seconds. Deadline's should be doing very similar if everything is working as it should and the process is done correctly.

 

[Robert 47]

I am following this post about the amount of anti-freeze that is put into a Yanmar 2GM20F for winterizing. In the 5 years I have owned our 31, I have never been able to get more than a gallon and ahalf in the system. When we did this 2 weeks ago, I stood in the companion way with the jug in hand, hose to the "T" fitting on the intake hose, engine running, wife sitting on the gunwall. Looking nice as usual, and when the "pink stuff" comes to the top of the water she yells "I see it" and she then shuts the engine down. I stop pouring anti-freeze in, and we are winterized for the year. I am reading where some are putting in 3 to 5 gallons. I have to ask, "where is it going"? I am somewhat of a diesel man, from 6 years in the military, as well as the owner of a nationwide auto service. So am pretty savie on mechanical engines.

 

[Warren Milberg]

I'm with Robert: my 2GM20F takes one gal of antifreeze before it shows up aft going into the drink.

 

[Alan]

...my 3GM30F also uses just one gallon to completely winterize the raw water system. I too have to wonder 'where the other 2 and 3 gallons are going' ????

 

[Maine Sail]

I am following this post about the amount of anti-freeze that is put into a Yanmar 2GM20F for winterizing. In the 5 years I have owned our 31, I have never been able to get more than a gallon and ahalf in the system. When we did this 2 weeks ago, I stood in the companion way with the jug in hand, hose to the "T" fitting on the intake hose, engine running, wife sitting on the gunwall. Looking nice as usual, and when the "pink stuff" comes to the top of the water she yells "I see it" and she then shuts the engine down. I stop pouring anti-freeze in, and we are winterized for the year. I am reading where some are putting in 3 to 5 gallons. I have to ask, "where is it going"? I am somewhat of a diesel man, from 6 years in the military, as well as the owner of a nationwide auto service. So am pretty savie on mechanical engines.

While it may "show up" what is it's concentration? What is the burst point? What is the freeze point? Just because yous see pink does not mean you are protected against bursting.

Water flow through a strainer, hoses, HX and muffler is not simple complete displacement. What you pump in gets mixed with whats already in there and dilutes. Propylene glycol should not get diluted or you will drastically raise your freeze and burst points. The -50 stuff is already heavily diluted and -50 is the burst point NOT the freeze point. Add just a little water, through dilution, and your burst point raises very quickly to ranges we see up North in a regular winter..

I once watched a strainer while sucking in 5 gallons. The bottom of the strainer was still clear water at 3 gallons and by five gallons it was full purple. And this was at the intake strainer.

Here's an example fill a glass with milk and set it in your sink now run the faucet into the glass and see how much it takes to turn completely clear. While not exactly the same it is similar.

I physically TEST what comes out of my exhaust. I know from experience and for a fact it takes a minimum of five gallons through our 44HP engine and RW circuit to get the same burst points out the stern as what it went in as. 5 gallons and I pre-drain the strainer which holds about 32 oz. The only way to know your burst point is to psychically test what comes out or suck more in for added insurance. Some engines will take less and some take MUCH more. I depends a lot on the internal flow characteristics of your engine. We see plenty of freeze problems up North from too little AF used or improper winterizing techniques.

At $3.39 a gallon it's a lot less expensive than freezing your engine.. Invest in a test kit then you'll know exactly how much your motor takes.

 

[Alan]

Even water with only small amounts of anti freeze will protect. A 15% solution will make a slush at 10 or 15 degrees but will not cause any damage till well below zero when the mixture will start to brick into a solid. I have tested the exhausted anti freeze at the one gallon level and its protection level is below -20F, certainly good enough for my coldest winter.

 

[Maine Sail]

Even water with only small amounts of anti freeze will protect. A 15% solution will make a slush at 10 or 15 degrees but will not cause any damage till well below zero when the mixture will start to brick into a solid. I have tested the exhausted anti freeze at the one gallon level and its protection level is below -20F, certainly good enough for my coldest winter.

Alan what are you testing it with? It may be possible your tester may not be working correctly? A 15% solution of PG will have a burst point around 17-18F. This data is direct from Dow Chemical one of the largest suppliers of PG. A 36% mix will have a burst between -50f and -60F so just a little dilution changes the game a lot.

I don't really care about freeze/slush but burst I do as we have seen -30F here in Maine and every spring the yards are replacing engines that froze..

 

[Alan]

I agree that above all you need to protect below your coldest known temps. I use an optical refractory scope that I've have for nearly 40 years, it is dead balls accurate. I do not however use PG. I use old waste EG that has been expelled from auto cooling systems. Going in it tests at -50 and after mixing with the remnant raw water coolant it expels at -20. Our temps here never reach below that so I'm safe with those numbers. Certainly if your local temps are lower it sure wouldn't hurt to run the engine a little longer to achieve the protection that your looking for.
Bottom line though, it should only take a couple of minutes to get the required amount of protection in. Anything much longer with minimal liquid coming out is certainly raising questions in my head. I'm looking forward to hearing the final explanation.

 

[Maine Sail]

I agree that above all you need to protect below your coldest known temps. I use an optical refractory scope that I've have for nearly 40 years, it is dead balls accurate.

Ah excellent choice!! I also use a sight refractometer..

I do not however use PG. I use old waste EG that has been expelled from auto cooling systems. Going in it tests at -50 and after mixing with the remnant raw water coolant it expels at -20.

That helps. EG is a lot more tolerant of dilution than PG. The yards up here disallow EG..

Our temps here never reach below that so I'm safe with those numbers. Certainly if your local temps are lower it sure wouldn't hurt to run the engine a little longer to achieve the protection that your looking for.

Yes you need to protect agains what you'll see. We have seen -29 and we're steps from the water, which helps keep us a little warmer if the bay has not already frozen. For my customers who haul home, and are inland, I want to see it protected to at least -40 which gives me a little wiggle room. I prefer it to come out the stern with the same protection it went in as.

Bottom line though, it should only take a couple of minutes to get the required amount of protection in. Anything much longer with minimal liquid coming out is certainly raising questions in my head. I'm looking forward to hearing the final explanation.

I agree 100%. Our engine sucks a full 5 gallon bucket dry in under 50 seconds at fast idle (1200 RPM). I suspect he is allowing air into the system somehow while doing this.. A minute and a half - two minutes would be a LONG time to suck in 5 gallons, let alone less AF......

 

[Alan]

EG should not be a problem anywhere provided you re-capture it at end of the layup. I use a bucket placed at the exhaust port and just run fresh water through till the color is gone. Then the re-captured stuff can be dumped in a recycle container. It's a nice way to make use of old anti freeze, and it's free.

 

[Robert 47]

I guess we can all agree to disagree. Its not Rocket Science we're talking about here. While way up north, I would imagine you would want anti freeze in every nook and cranie. I believe also that the customary thing to do up north is to pull your boat and store on the hard, inside or outside covered. Here in the midwest we have a little more of a choice. We can leave the boat in the water, or take it out and put on the hard, covering is optional. Some cover to keep the snow and rain water from freezing and blocking up the drains. Or you can leave it in the water with a "Bubbler" running on a thermostate. This is what we do with our Hunter. It gets cold for us here for the most part, but not bone chilling cold.
Checking to see if anti freeze is in all the right places is hard to do. The raw water intake filter bowl can be checked by opening it up and looking in there. Mine is always full. But I check anyway just tomake sure. But even if you do not completely get all of the water out of the exhaust system, there is still some anti freeze in there to make it harder to freeze solid and cause damage. I just understood from the other responses that they used 3 to 5 gallons of anti freeze in the engine. You can use that much to winterize the whole boat, fresh water tank, and the marine head system.

 

[Bill Roosa]

Hey Deadline
You say you Tee your supply hose to the pump intake. clearly the bucket of anti is on the end of one hose, the engine pump is on another and the raw water intake is on the third. Depending on exactly how you plumb the Tee you could get a venturi lock on the anti/bucket hose. I read all the posts and I don't see where you closed the raw water intake valve.
A venturi lock happens when the line you are connecting is situated in just the right spot of a bend and the tee on that leg exprences not a vacume but a slight positive pressure. This can all be remidies by closing the raw water intake valve as then the only place the water can come from is the bucket.
FWIW

 

[Maine Sail]

I just understood from the other responses that they used 3 to 5 gallons of anti freeze in the engine. You can use that much to winterize the whole boat, fresh water tank, and the marine head system.

SOME boats take 3-5 gallons to PROPERLY antifreeze the RW circuit. Our boat takes 5. How do I know? Because I physically tested the glycol concentrations. At 4 gal my burst point is WITHIN the low temp range we see. It would be completely stupid of me to leave her like that for a winter.

The last boat I winterized this year had an M-25 with 3" heat exchanger. At 3 gallons she still could have burst at 10 below zero, which we see multiple times in a average winter. I had to suck in more.. I only knew this from testing it. It "looked" plenty pink..

Broad based statements saying 3 to 5 gallons will do a whole boat, it won't even dent ours and our water heater and water tanks are bypassed, could cost someone an engine or plumbing fittings.

I would urge people to either suck in more than you think you should or physically TEST the concentration.. Ideally you should be protected to at least 10F beyond the lowest 30 year temps for your area. A heat exchanger or engine or even plumbing fittings will cost more to fix than the extra gallon or two of antifreeze at $3.39 - $3.79 gallon..

Here are the suggestions from Westerbeke:

"Close the thru hull seacock. Remove the raw water intake hose from the sea cock. Place the end of this hose into a 5-gallon bucket of clean fresh water. Before starting the engine, check the zinc pencil found in the primary heat exchanger on the engine and clean or replace it, if required. Clean your sea strainer, if one is installed in the inside of the hull.





Start the engine and allow the raw water pump to draw the fresh water through the system. When the bucket empties, stop the engine and refill the bucket with an antifreeze solution slightly stronger than needed for winter freeze protection in your area.



Start the engine and allow all of this mixture to be drawn through the raw water system. Once the bucket empties, stop the engine. This anti-freeze mixture should protect your raw water circuit from freezing during winter lay-up, as well as providing corrosion protection.



Remove the impeller from your raw water pump (some antifreeze mixture will accompany it, so catch it in a bucket). Examine the impeller. Acquire a replacement if needed and a cover gasket. Do not replace the impeller back into the pump until the Spring commissioning."


Even Westerbeke is suggesting a full bucket or 5 gallons of AF sucked through the engine.. I still prefer to physically test it because some engines may take less...

 

[HeeledOver]

I just purchased an '83 H31 and have loved everyone's comments on here... thanks!

That said, I'm winterizing for the first time. I live in the Pacific NW, so our winters are fairly mild with lows rarely in the teens, and only for maybe a week or two of the winter. We just leave our boats in the water. Last year, I even sailed on a pleasant day in January.

Anyway, my question is, aside from putting antifreeze in, what else do I need to do to winterize?

Does anyone have a checklist they'd be willing to share?