Anchor Holding

[Samaral]

At night I use at least 5:1 chain ratio and I set up anchor alert APP on Ipad2(works on iPhone as well), as well as the anchor alarm on the chart plotter.
Of course, depending on the weather, I wake up a couple of times to visually check also!!
Sergio.

 

[dqb24]

To improve sleeping, peace of mind, and the likelihood of keeping the anchor, well, anchored, for the boats that hunt at anchor like the H34 among others, what is the opinion on a a triangular anchor riding sail - strung from the boom to the backstay, seems like a good idea - IF it works. There are comercial ones avaialble, but seems like it would be easy to make from sailcloth or similar...
Has anyone tried one with success?

 

[Kings Gambit]

These sails are difficult to use if you have a split backstay where the bifurcation point is fairly high. I tested the idea using a storm jib on the Bavaria 38 (which has a split backstay) in a well protected anchorage in 20 kt of wind. It keeps the amplitude of the swing down; i.e., you swing a much narrower arc but the boat still oscillates. As the wind passed from one side of the riding sail to the other, it slapped hard in that much wind! Probably because that storm sail was not entirely flat (i.e., there is some camber). However, much too noisy to relax and enjoy my G&T in the afternoon wind. Also, the commercial versions of these things are over $400. I asked one sailing friend of mine if I should get a riding sail and he told me: "Only if there is nothing else you need to buy." Well, there it is; I'll never have one if that is the criterion!

 

[Prime Time]

Right on

When ever I have any doubt I let out more rode. I often ride to a 10:1 scope

There is no substitute for enough scope!

 

[dqb24]

These sails are difficult to use if you have a split backstay where the bifurcation point is fairly high. I tested the idea using a storm jib on the Bavaria 38 (which has a split backstay) in a well protected anchorage in 20 kt of wind. It keeps the amplitude of the swing down; i.e., you swing a much narrower arc but the boat still oscillates. As the wind passed from one side of the riding sail to the other, it slapped hard in that much wind! Probably because that storm sail was not entirely flat (i.e., there is some camber). However, much too noisy to relax and enjoy my G&T in the afternoon wind. Also, the commercial versions of these things are over $400. I asked one sailing friend of mine if I should get a riding sail and he told me: "Only if there is nothing else you need to buy." Well, there it is; I'll never have one if that is the criterion!

Key criteria - cannot usurp the G&T, and cannot unnecessarily 'shop. I'd be tempted to play around with it make a board flat version if/when I can get my hands on some heavyweight dacron-of course with an adult bev nearby. Sounds like a rainy day project-lots of those. Cheers.

 

[Kings Gambit]

If you do not wish to swing much, put out a stern anchor and call it even. Boats like the Bavaria that are beamy with high freeboard (=windage) and a fin keel on a fairly flat bottom are going to "sail" to the bow anchor. Mine gets going pretty good when the wind gets up. The only way to really nail it is to put out the stern anchor. I don't think the riding sail will prove effective enough for the trouble and cost of it.

 

[Bad Obsession]

Most boats swing on anchor. Mine tends to swing a bit on anchor. The swinging doesn't bother me. It is part of life. If you start deploying other anchors you start to run the risk of hanging the anchors on each other if the wind shifts.

 

[thinwater]

Sometimes you can feel it, sometimes not....

Once an anchor cut loose; we went sideways and it was obvious. The anchor had hooked a tin can, felt set, but could not go deeper under high load.

Twice I have tracked though very very soft mud with a 25# Delta. It was very slow and we could not feel it, perhaps 100 feet in an hour. A Fortress F-16 put a stop to it both times and was solid. The only way I could tell was a small shift in possition, and because I had lowered a second anchor near the bow with 100 feet of line on it; within an hour, the second anchor was tight. Of course, I knew the set was very poor.

I have since revisited the same spots with a Manson Supreme 35# and been rock steady. Very different.

 

[Ross]

Re: Sometimes you can feel it, sometimes not....

A fifteen pound anchor versus a 35 pound anchor yes I think you could tell the difference. There is an old adage in hot rodding cars. Cubic inches will always tell. with anchorspounds will always tell. A fifty pound CQR will probably hold better than a 25 pound anything else and a fiifty pound anything else will hold better than a twenty-five pound CQR

 

[Sumner]

To improve sleeping, peace of mind, and the likelihood of keeping the anchor, well, anchored, for the boats that hunt at anchor like the H34 among others, what is the opinion on a a triangular anchor riding sail - strung from the boom to the backstay, seems like a good idea - IF it works. There are commercial ones available, but seems like it would be easy to make from sailcloth or similar...
Has anyone tried one with success?

We finally got ours to work well...

...after some trial and error. Here are 2 youtube videos...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkLbyBld1lY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKjU842c9Zo

Does it stop swing entirely, no and I never considered it when worrying about anchor drag and Ruth didn't make it ...

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/macgregor-canvas/canvas-5.html

...for that. The trick is to not put it on the center line, but to tie it from the centerline off to one side like in the picture above. I'm thinking that with split backstays it might work to have it on one and then tie the bottom off to the other side of the boat. With the sail you actually want the boat to sail off some like when you heave-to.

We anchor alone probably over 90% of the time and I'm a big fan of lots of scope and we often put 2 anchors down and our anchors and rode are way over sized for the light 26' Mac with a 22 lb bruce and 25 lb. Manson Supreme. I hardly ever wake at night no matter how high the wind so want good anchor gear. As far as I can tell we have only drug maybe twice in about 150 nights on the anchor and one of those was with the little Danforth that came with the boat. Our last night in Florida last spring I think we might of drug on the Bruce about 30 feet towards the Manson. We were on almost a Bahamian moor. We do set an anchor alarm, but we hadn't moved enough for it to go off.

Here is a tip that I haven't seen anyone post yet I believe. When you drop the anchor set the alarm right then and there. now when you back down say 100 feet you can set the alarm at 125' to 150' and it won't go off if you swing 180 degrees on a wind change as you will still only be about 100 feet from where you set it. We use to and sometimes still forget to set it until we back down on the anchor. Then if we have 100 feet of rode out and swing 180 degrees we have moved 200 feet from where we set it.

Ruth usually tells me the depth where we drop anchor and I multiply that by 10 and let that much rode out plus there is 30 feet of chain on the end and I don't count that. Using a multiplier of 10 usually ends up with a scope of about 7 when you consider the distance from the waterline up to the deck into it all. I've also marked the rode every 25 feet with ...

....a simple system that I can tell how much is going out as I feed it without stopping and trying to read markers. More on that here...

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/macgregor/rigging-4.html

...and now I just use pieces of black electrical tape as the markers.

We like the Manson and bought a 35 lb. for the Endeavour to go along with the 35 lb. CQR. I might add a fortress for a boat up to 45 feet to the bunch also. We have a fortress FX-11 for the Mac, but have never used it,

Sum

Our Endeavour 37

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Our MacGregor S Pages

 

[thinwater]

A fifteen pound anchor versus a 35 pound anchor yes I think you could tell the difference. There is an old adage in hot rodding cars. Cubic inches will always tell. with anchorspounds will always tell. A fifty pound CQR will probably hold better than a 25 pound anything else and a fiifty pound anything else will hold better than a twenty-five pound CQR

Actually, the 12-pound Fortress does as well as the 35-pound new-age anchor in very soft stuff. It was the 25-pound plow that "plowed" without any indication that it was moving. At least I would have hit shore slowly....

 

[Maine Sail]

A fifteen pound anchor versus a 35 pound anchor yes I think you could tell the difference. There is an old adage in hot rodding cars. Cubic inches will always tell. with anchorspounds will always tell. A fifty pound CQR will probably hold better than a 25 pound anything else and a fiifty pound anything else will hold better than a twenty-five pound CQR

I'll take a 35 pound Spade, Manson Supreme or even a pre-China Rocna over a 60 pound CQR every day of the week.... I've got a couple of genuine "door stops" if anyone wants one...

We're now up well over 200 anchorings on our Rocna, stopped counting at 200. It has failed to set on the FIRST TRY for us only two times, both in the same spot. This spot had waist high or deeper eel grass.. That is a 99% first try, solid and near immediate set record.. Our Manson Supreme with over 140 sets was 100%.. Our CQR's, I stopped counting as in some spots it took four or five tries at each location, and they were over-sized.

 

[Nodak7]

As I mentioned in earlier posts were we anchor has many small bays that do not allow enough scope. I feel fortunate if I get 5:1. I do not believe I have ever actually had a 7:1 on this lake. Anyway to help alleviate this we always use a sentinel (Killet) when we anchor. It has really been a life saver in a couple of situations. As I mentioned we have only been blown off our anchor once and it was a horrendous storm that did it. Talk about a night from hell. There are lots of weeds on the bottom of our bays and I have had wonderful success with my 24# Bulwagga. Unfortunately it is just marginal for our new boat and I am looking to go to a 44# (if I can locate one). Anyway does anyone else use a sentinel on a regular basis?

One additional item. Though I like the idea of a second anchor (stern or bow), a sentinel and an anchor marker I get very concerned about all this "stuff" hanging over the side if you get into trouble (i.e. a big storm coming up in the middle of the night). Trying to pull all this stuff up when you have to move out of there can be cumbersome and time consuming. The one night we had problems my wife and I were having a heck of a time just handling the anchor and the sentinel. If there had been other stuff out we may have been grounded by the time we had it all up.

 

[Sumner]

I'll take a 35 pound Spade, Manson Supreme or.....

MS what is the displacement of your boat? Our 37 is suppose to be 20,000 lb. and we bought a 35 Supreme. A Manson distributor seemed to think it was plenty for the boat, but I wonder. We don't have a windless, so I stayed away from the 45 lb. as I question my ability to get it out of the water with the chain. We have only been on one 70 mile trip with the Endeavour and anchored out for 3-4 nights and one of the nights we were pretty exposed in higher wind 15-20 knots and the boat despite its weight didn't really seem to be putting that much strain on the rode/anchor vs. our smaller/lighter Mac in the same kind of wind. They usually rate these anchors using length and displacement. Length wise we are good with the 35 Manson, but weight wise maybe not. Any thoughts and thanks? If we did expect heavy weather we would also put the 35 lb. CQR down along with the Manson. Also buying a Fortress that is rated for a 40-50 foot is an option as they don't weigh as much, but I don't think they work in as many different type bottoms like the Manson does.

....One additional item. Though I like the idea of a second anchor (stern or bow),..

When we started we often use a stern shore line and at times a stern anchor. I'll never do that again if I expect high winds, or especially if I expect a wind direction shift. If the wind shifts and the boat can't swing you start putting a tremendous load on the road and anchors. We were in this situation on Lake Powell when a storm came with winds over 50 mph and we couldn't use the anchor as the water depth was hundreds of feet.

We had bow and stern lines going to the rock shore and a rock island. We exploded a new 3 twist nylon stern line in a high gust. I had to get us secured better in the wind and that resulted in a screwed up rotator cuff, a bum knee and a fractured shoulder and sitting for a few day out of contact with the world while I healed some so I could start the outboard. We ended up in basically a bahamian moor with all bow lines. I'll use multiple anchors now frequently, but they are all going to the bow.

The story is here if you are interested....

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/MacgregorTrips-3-Powell09/09-10-9-Powell-09.html

Good luck,

Sum

Our Endeavour 37

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Our MacGregor S Pages

Mac-Venture Links

 

[zeehag]

all fin keelers yaw. yawing is what you guys call sailing at anchor. yawing is a product of the fin keel as not able to sail into wind is a feature of full keels....is possible to add a small steadying type sail to the back stay of a sloop/cutter if you dont have a split backstay. that will reduce yawing. adding an anchor in an anchorage can be a lot of rudeness, depending on the ability of others to also anchor there. you wont swing with the other boats and makes anchorage a lot smaller. also, withj 2 anchors down one isstill able to drag anchor and those anchors will foul eachother. good luck and have fun.
yawing is not a bad thing--is just a thing. a bridle with use of both forward cleats also minimizes yawing. try it-- worked for my ericson 35.

 

[Bill1565]

I'll take a 35 pound Spade, Manson Supreme or even a pre-China Rocna over a 60 pound CQR every day of the week.... I've got a couple of genuine "door stops" if anyone wants one....

I'd happily pay the freight to Florida, and even kick in a few bucks for a genuine 60lb CQR

 

[Sumner]

...yawing is not a bad thing--is just a thing. a bridle with use of both forward cleats also minimizes yawing. try it-- worked for my ericson 35.

I agree about the "not a bad thing--is just a thing". Ruth made the anchor sail and we use it most of the time, but we got so use to swinging on the anchor that we really never noticed it after a while. So now why do we use the anchor sail? Good question that I don't have an answer for, except maybe I'm looking for something to do once we anchor .

Is your rode all chain? I'd like to do a bridle, but we have chain and then nylon 3 twist on the Endeavour and I can't see an easy way to use a bridle with the nylon. I'm probably just not seeing the obvious. I'd want something that is easy and fast to use for the night and then easy to disengage in the morning when we move on. I can see how to do a bridle with chain that would be fast to use or take down, but not the nylon.

Also your comments about the fin keel vs. the full keel got me thinking that maybe that answers the question I had as to why the Mac swings so much more on anchor than the Endeavour. The Mac has a centerboard and I pull it up on anchor along with the rudder so nothing is down in the water vs. the Endeavour that has a modified almost full keel.

The Endeavour doesn't hardly move on anchor,

Sum

Our Endeavour 37

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Our MacGregor S Pages

Mac-Venture Links

 

[Nodak7]

Sumner, when we had our Mac if there was even a light breeze it would rock and roll. The round bottom and no keel will aggravate that a bunch. You might try to put the keel down a little (6-12") and that will reduce it some. Read your log! You had quite the night. We are on a lake as well and get into small areas but most of the time (95%) we just bring the nose up to shore and tie off bow and stern. We use "shore anchors" and they work great. As you can see from the picture we usually have a few boats nested together. The lines are coming off the stern of both end boats and sometimes if a storm is predicted we put out a stern anchor. In this picture you can see one coming off the back of our boat (dark hulled). :dance:

 

[shemandr]

One of the best ways I learned to stop sailing on the rode is to have a buddy tie up to you. We've been more comfortable at anchor with a Remora on the rail. I actually sleep better without the snapping up our boat does on its own. I worry about getting the anchor out in the AM but I don't worry about dragging.

 

[Nodak7]

One of the best ways I learned to stop sailing on the rode is to have a buddy tie up to you. We've been more comfortable at anchor with a Remora on the rail. I actually sleep better without the snapping up our boat does on its own. I worry about getting the anchor out in the AM but I don't worry about dragging.

Shemandr, do you both drop a hook or just one? What size is the boat you tie up too?