RichH. Got a question for you...

[Kermit]

Rich,

Sorry for snooping, but I saw you reading this closed thread. http://forums.hunter.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=120970 Turns out, you're describing my boat exactly... At least I think that's what my main looks like. Please check out the picture attached and tell me if the problem you described is what I have going on with mine. The sail may not be raised all the way, but the sail and rigging are all original - I think!

Thanks!

Kermit

 

[RichH]

1. Could be simply that you arent FULLY raising the mainsail, most 'non-racers' rarely raise their sails properly preventing the sail from taking its 'designed shape'.
2. With 'original' sails ALSO that the luff boltrope possibly has shrunken...

ALL I can discern from your photo is the aft end of the boom is much lower than the gooseneck, usually caused by 1&2 above .... all this results in "weather helm", draft too far aft, very 'full' draft, 'baggy' sail, leech 'hooked up to weather, drooping boom .... Boat - cant point worth a damn, heels over aggressively but slow as hell, 'cranky' boat, etc.

Here's the original posting from Don Guilette's SBO Sail Trim Forum: How to properly RAISE a Woven Dacron Mainsail http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=120970
PM me direct if this doesnt provide the solution you're looking for.

;-)

 

[Kermit]

We'll make sure to raise it fully when we sail this weekend. You're right about the ".... all this results in "weather helm", draft too far aft, very 'full' draft, 'baggy' sail, leech 'hooked up to weather, drooping boom .... Boat - cant point worth a damn, heels over aggressively but slow as hell, 'cranky' boat, etc"

Good thing I'm not a racer!

Thanks for your reply. I try not to stress the little stuff, but your reply could easily make our daysailing much more pleasurable.

Kermit

 

[RichH]

SAFER too!

 

[Joe]

Too bad Kermit doesn't have a "downhaul" as opposed to a cunningham. Then he could lower the boom at the gooseneck end.... would that help? or no?

 

[RichH]

Downhaul is going to bring the boom close to the deck/heads. Either way the boltrope HAS to have its 'preload' stretched out before the sail will take its 'designed' shape .... halyard tension and/or cunningham tension usually is the best ... keeps the boom as high as possible.

Problem with smaller boats is lack of mast mounted winch to apply sufficient halyard tension ... and that leaves one to 'worry' the halyard tight enough.
On one of my boats (ILYA scow - NO mast winch) with a sliding gooseneck/downhaul ... I raise the gooseneck as far up as possible (1" for each ft. of sail luff length - all premarked), then raise the sail as far as possible, THEN force (knee') the gooseneck DOWN to proper position for the correct 'stretched-out' boltrope ... but the boom never goes lower than the 'black band' as the boom is carried ~2ft 'above the deck' (about 2 ft. lower than my head) ... I hate getting 'boomed' and I REFUSE to wear a helmet. ;-)

ILYA.org
Config of an I20 below:

 

[All U Get]

Hi Kermit,
Thanks for posting your question. Our boat has the same issue only multiplied by two other factors and I've been trying to see the logic of sailmaker or rigger who sold this idea to the PO.
The main sail is on a roller furling that is external to the mast. This must predate the inmast furlers of today but has similar features. It's loose footed with an outhaul on a track the length of the boom so it can be reefed at any length. However being external it has sunbrella (like) fabric on the leech and foot to protect it from UV's while furled, just like a headsail. Visually it looks good and the concept may work with a new sail, but the problem I've had this summer is identical to yours.
The boltrope has shrunk and I suspect the sunbrella has done the same. Raising the main I can crank the halyard tight with a winch and the main is still wrinkled along the luff. Opening the sail I can tension the foot with a winch and the sunbrella is similarly tight. The leech, having sunbrella on it, is also tight when tightening the main sheet and vang. The main may have at one time looked great, but it has stretched over time and looks like granny's bloomers.
I talked with a local sailmaker who's first response was "I wondered when you were going to come in." During the launch ride to our mooring he described the moodiness of our boat and the final kicker is when the wind picks up the furler bows aft because the only support is the cable from the masthead to the boom inside the furling foil. We talked a lot of options for this sail and changing the rigging, mast, and/or boom and I told him I'd think on it for a while.
I spent several evenings reading older posts on this site and trying solutions others have had and then we went for a two-week cruise.
Downwind was great, pointing was poor, and coming about slowed us down to a crawl. Raising the main had little effect on boat speed and as the wind increased we couldn't spill the wind to get the telltales to stream but we heeled over nicely.
Next summer we'll have the furler removed, a new traditional main with full battens, and a boat that doesn't fight the helm. Thanks again to all that post on this website.
All U Get

 

[Cayennita]

As a racer, we pre-stretch the halyards by attaching them to the toe rail or other suitable pace on deck and put a lot of tension for at least 10 minutes.. Most halyards do some stretching during the course of the day, resulting in luff wrinkles and further back draft than desired.
The Mumm 30, now called the Farr 30 has a locking halyard and the tension is then created by having a loose tack with a downhaul attached to it.
The picture on the Hunter 23 shows a short luff and that's OK. Need to put more tension on the halyard and if there are two holes on the headboard, use the aft position.
If that does not work, have the sailmaker install a grommet about 10 inches up from the tack. Attach a line similar to a reefing line and use that as a flattening reef. Upwind the boom will be higher and eliminate some of the weather helm. Downwind release the line and gain extra sail area. I use a flattening reef and a large skirt on a loose footed main. Upwind its gone and downwind, again extra sail area.

 

[Kermit]

Problem with smaller boats is lack of mast mounted winch to apply sufficient halyard tension ... and that leaves one to 'worry' the halyard tight enough.
On one of my boats (ILYA scow - NO mast winch) with a sliding gooseneck/downhaul ... I raise the gooseneck as far up as possible (1" for each ft. of sail luff length - all premarked), then raise the sail as far as possible, THEN force (knee') the gooseneck DOWN to proper position for the correct 'stretched-out' boltrope ... but the boom never goes lower than the 'black band' as the boom is carried ~2ft 'above the deck' (about 2 ft. lower than my head) ... I hate getting 'boomed' and I REFUSE to wear a helmet.

I'm attaching a picture of the base of my mast. I do have a winch on my mast but the PO had the halyard run to the cockpit for easier single-handling. (You'll also notice the collar missing from the winch.) Forgive my ignorance, but would using the mast-mounted winch really help get the sail higher and tighter? Yes, I did read what you said about kneeing the tack down.

Thanks!

Kermit

 

[RichH]

Kermit
The sailmakers database has your H23 with an 88 degree 'tack angle' for the main when 'full up'.

I suggest that, on a windless day, you simply make a trial of raising with the incomplete winch and measure the resultant tack angle that he mast makes with the top of the boom .... a square sheet of card board (90° angles) will be 'close' or 'good enough' for starters. This will also help to determine if your boltrope has shrunken or not.

Then, you can 'trial' raise from both the cockpit or by 'worrying' the halyard (pulling the halyard from a perpendicular angle while you hold tension around a cleat, etc.) at the base of the mast, etc. to see if you 'can' come close to the 88-90° tack angle by not using the winch. Odds are you WILL need that winch for an old sail with a shrunken boltrope.

You can still use the winch even if the halyard is led the cockpit ... raise the sail with the winch and have someone in the cockpit 'tail' the winch from there ... when you need to dowse from the cockpit, the halyard will simply slip on the winch, etc.

Of course the ultimate test will be while on a beat and heeled over - to let go of the tiller and have the boat continue a 'straight course' without heading up or falling off ... then loosen the halyard strain until the boat 's-l-o-w-l-y' heads up all by itself. .... but every day will be 'different' as to how much or little halyard tension is needed ... and if the halyard is in the cockpit of a smaller boat, the safer the 'final' halyard tension adjustment while underway.

Later, to make halyard tensioning 'faster', once you find the correct amount of tension for the 'usual' wind and wave, etc. conditions ... simply put a mark on the mast and another mark on the halyard overlaying the 'mast mark' and simply 'match the marks' when raising.

Just do some trial 'raisings' to see if you can get at least a 90 mast/boom angle.

Dont be bashful if 'normal methods' dont work to get to a 'dead-fish neutral helm' ... just get back to us.

hope this helps.

 

[Kermit]

Wow, this has become more of a learning experience than I expected. Rich, thanks for the time you and the other folks have put in to answering my question. We hope to sail Sunday.

I forgot to mention that the PO did add a winch when he ran the halyard to the cockpit. My First Mate really enjoys raising the sail and using the winch handle. (Now if I could just get her to learn to sail!) I'll try your system and see what difference it makes. We covered raising the sail tight in Keelboat 101, but never talked about proper angles. Dang there must be about a million more things I'm not aware of.

I did have the sails balanced once. Couldn't believe that I could let go of the tiller and relax. And then steering was a millions times easier, too. Came close to balanced sails once after that. I hope getting the main just right will help just as y'all are advertising.

Don Guillette sings your praises along with others on this forum. He obviously knows good people when he sees them.

Kermit

 

[sdfox]

Cay mentioned the headboard with multiple holes. My cat27 has this and I've always wondered what they adjusted. I experimented with mine but never noticed a difference in the way the boat performed. I'm guessing that the halyard angle on the headboard relates to the tack angle. Can anyone expand on this?
tnx
scotty