Can You Tweek Another Tenth of a Knot Here?

[RobertLangdirect]

Sir;

I sailed sunfish, AMF dolphin, (or maybe it was a bath tub), and lasers before getting a Hunter 25 many many years ago. I bought my current boat, essentially, for less than I sold by older and 6 foot smaller boat for, thus her name, GOOD TRADE.

Needless to say, knowing anything else about the boat was less important, at the time, including knowing how to sail her well. So over the past few years, I have found myself standing still while other boats raced past. For those times when I was aground and standing still, well, I understood that problem (and have become much more aware of the thin water areas as well). But the other time, I decided it had to be a problem of "sail trim."

Thus, I write, thank you, for the advice you have provided over the past year. Sometimes you answered my questions when others asked them and sometimes you responded explicitly to me. And with that said, I have one more trim question to ask, specific to a recently viewed sailing problem.

Over the weekend in honking winds of 25 plus knots and gusts peaking out at 35 plus, I raced GOOD TRADE. Knowing that last year's experience in less wind was one of constantly luffing up, I read everything I could (by you and another guy named "Gary") about "depowering" a fractionally rigged boat by bending the mast, hauling down on the cunningham, and pulling the sail with the outhaul.

We did it all -- and still had moments when GOOD TRADE tried to luff up. So we would dump the main, fast, keep on course, maintain about 80 percent of our speed, and then haul in as the blast passed.

I don't think the wind called for the storm jib so we went with the 90percent, number three. And my next trim question/probem may be due to the smallish size of the number 3. Going down wind, the main seems to block the jib. I never have this problem with the 155, but the No. 3 was ugly much of the time.

Please see the link. What is best in this situation? From my busy advantage behind the wheel, I was not able to see if it was surfing down the waves that made the jib deflate. But is there a better way to drive the jib?

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-jd4IuiwPpsk/TprrIQO57JI/AAAAAAAAAN4/CMuMRCSeB4g/s576/P1100876.JPG

Thank You!

Robert Lang
S/V GOOD TRADE

 

[Stu Jackson]

Robert, we raced a few weeks ago in the same kinda conditions. We had our 110 jib up with a reefed main while our competitors had 130s and full mains. We won. Someone mentioned that our jib had set better than theirs on a broad reach portion of the course. They attributed that to our high clew and high tack. I just don't know about that myself, but our jib stayed fuller than theirs, which kept collapsing on them as you mentioned. Coulda been due to the reefed main, too. The other more "obvious" solution is to sail higher and faster and gybe going downwind. It's always tempting to "stay with the other guy" when going downwind, but if you break away and pick up speed, then it's worth it. We also were able to use the currents to our advantage - don't know if you had any on your race day - by heading into the current to the next waypoint way before the other guys did. Most people use their GPSs for heading to the next mark, but when that happens they end up steering a curved, and longer course because the GPS doesn't know about the current.

 

[RichH]

Both boats in the attachment pic (MY attached pic, not the orig. pic) have their headsails grossly overtwisted ..... clew too close to the boats centerline, head overtwisted and 'detached'. No doubt that if the pic had sound capability there would have been a lot of noise coming from the tops of those jibs.
In such conditions with the sails grossly overtwisted, only the center panels will be 'drawing' .... the solution to all this is to *change the location of the jib fairlead cars - FORWARD*. even if it means partly furling/reefing or changing to a smaller size jib, to keep 'an even *break* on the luff and to keep the aerodynamic forces even and 'spread out'. If the luff 'breaks' evenly and simultaneously as you occasionally 'test' the fairlead car (either by letting out the jib sheet or by slightly 'heading up'), the entire sail surface will be 'drawing'; in stark contrast, a grossly over twisted sail will only be drawing from the 'mid panels' and the over-trimmed lower sections will be causing 'adverse helm'.

Unless constrained by the finish line, etc. P31 #14 could have 'ripped' by heading up a bit and got both sails fully pulling. (could be the camera angle).

 

[Cayennita]

It also looks like you're trying to go DDW. A fractional rigged boat will have almost all of the sail blocked by the very large main. The main is your driving power. The reverse for masthead rigged boats. Thus the Cal behind you has a reefed main. Unless not allowed by the rules, you should have the jib poled out. An adjustable pole would be easier since you can shorten it depending on the sail size. In my J-36 (fractional) I used the pole on the same side of the boom when reaching. I race with a 120% genoa and use an outside line through the pole to pull aft. the lazy sheet to pull the clew in along the pole and the regular sheet to keep the clew against the pole. You can then adjust the clew in-out forward back up down etc. Need Topping lift and foreguy to control the sail properly. I have used this system since the rule change in 1996 allowing the pole on the same side as the boom. In the picture I would have gone wing and wing with a pole. It will allow you some reaching by easing the pole forward and down.

 

[Maine Sail]

Robert,

What Rich said about the head sails. In those conditions we would have most likely reefed the main and perhaps gone with slightly more head to keep the helm balanced so we were not just dragging our rudder. We won a race this summer by such a wide distance it was not even funny. How? We reefed our boat to keep her flatter and well balanced. We never rounded up and continued to push along while other racers were way over powered. They spent more time on their ears rounding up and dragging the rudder and it killed their performance.

 

[Don12364]

Robert,
Your avatar shows an older style IOR type hull with pinched ends and a narrow transom. These are very potent upwind compared with the wide transoms seen today - HOWEVER if you look again you will see that your crew weight is almost exactly vertically over the centre of buoyancy/centre of gravity. i.e. they are not helping to keep the boat upright and are only retarding the boat as a result of their weight. It might feel like the max power but easing the boom down the traveller in the gusts, even at the expense of having the first third of the sail luffing, or easing the sheet to twist the mainsail head off to reduce heel will be faster. Trimming the main is one crewman's full time job to keep her 'on her feet'.
Of course, if the wind is steady, i.e. no long lulls, then reducing sail is faster.

And, using large helm angles to prevent luffing up is also like applying the brakes so sail her nearer to 25° than 45°.
And, if there are short steep waves, then sail her with your jib/genoa fully powered up and not half winding to help power through the rough water. You will develop a feel of when to luff over a wave and when to bear off and power up through it. Don't pinch!
My Ron Holland Nicholson half tonner had the same hull form and with a small jib and reefed main she 'felt' great on the helm and was dynamite on the wind in 25/30 knots but her narrow stern meant we were slower than the 'half boats' of today when reaching.
Of course all the previous remarks about flattening sails and bending mast (if you are able to) in order to remove excess fullness is good.

 

[RobertLangdirect]

Into Cayennita reply I add answers IN UPPER CASE (but not because I wanted to shout).

It also looks like you're trying to go DDW.. . . YES, NEAR SO.

A fractional rigged boat will have almost all of the sail blocked by the very large main . . . YES, SO WE SAW IT THAT DAY. . . .

The main is your driving power. . . .

You should have the jib poled out. . . AH, YES. AND ON ANY OTHER DAY, IF WE HAD LESS THAT THE CONSTANT 20+ BLOWING OR A MORE EXPERIENCED CREW, I MIGHT HAVE PUSHED THE ENVELOPE. BUT THANK YOU FOR THAT OBSERVATION BECAUSE I WILL KEEP THAT IN MIND. IT IS BY YOUR FEEDBACK (EVERYONE'S FEEDBACK) THAT I AM IMPROVING.

An adjustable pole . . . BEEN THERE . . . BROKE THAT TOO.. . GOT IT FIXED BY GOLLY!

THANKS FOR THE DETAILED DIRECTIONS . . . .

Need Topping lift and foreguy . . . I HAVE THAT ON GOOD TRADE.

In the picture I would have gone wing and wing with a pole. It will allow you some reaching by easing the pole forward and down.

Thank you very much. I will keep this in mind, in fact, I am printing this to take to the boat.

 

[RobertLangdirect]

Thank You Maine Sail

Robert,

In those conditions we would have most likely reefed the main and perhaps gone with slightly more head to keep the helm balanced so we were not just dragging our rudder. . . . .

Yes. I was thinking of that too, but the forecast for the day wasn't quite what it turned out to be. I had, expecting about half the wind, to bend the mast, max out the cunningham, bring the outhaul to her line, and use the number three if not the storm jib.

With the exception of one drastic round up as we ran to the line for a Vandenburg (? right name) start, we did not drag the rudder. As soon as we felt the luff start, we dumped the main.

But you think reef the main and go with more jib? Interesting.