Ahh yes. The ol' "I should be able to discharge (anything) overboard because somebody, somewhere is a bigger polluter than I am" argument. Tired, worn out and just plain illogical.
Weird Survey Response
- Thread starter Rick D
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Hi fstbttms,
I dont think that was what Rich was implying, just that everyone is tired and a bit scared of interest groups & politicians demonizing boat owners - Even ones that are very careful not to hurt the environment. Its the whole politicians and groups focusing on what sounds good rather then what really matters.
IN the end, who knows how this survey will be used against us, but from reading the article, it sounds like it may be more harmless then we think as they even admit it doesn't represent the boating community as a whole: http://www.thelog.com/news/logNewsArticle.aspx?x=12775
“What we wanted to do with this survey is identify any gaps in boater knowledge, in terms of clean water capabilities,” said Boating Clean and Green program director Vivian Matuk, who oversaw the survey. “The survey doesn’t represent California’s boating population as a whole, but it does give our program partners some new information and insight into what areas of outreach are working toward clean water, and which areas need improvement.
I dont think that was what Rich was implying, just that everyone is tired and a bit scared of interest groups & politicians demonizing boat owners - Even ones that are very careful not to hurt the environment. Its the whole politicians and groups focusing on what sounds good rather then what really matters.
IN the end, who knows how this survey will be used against us, but from reading the article, it sounds like it may be more harmless then we think as they even admit it doesn't represent the boating community as a whole: http://www.thelog.com/news/logNewsArticle.aspx?x=12775
“What we wanted to do with this survey is identify any gaps in boater knowledge, in terms of clean water capabilities,” said Boating Clean and Green program director Vivian Matuk, who oversaw the survey. “The survey doesn’t represent California’s boating population as a whole, but it does give our program partners some new information and insight into what areas of outreach are working toward clean water, and which areas need improvement.
Why is it that even a simple survey question about boating pollution is somehow a threat to boaters? Boaters pollute, it's undeniable. We should be interested in reducing that pollution, not in justifying it.
Now you hit it!!! Check out my calculations (see attached). If you assume a caloric intake of 2000 calories/day etc.etc. you get 182 million metric tonnes of CO2 annually just from the respiration of the human race. You can't blame the soccer moms and their SUVs for rising sea levels. It is time our politicians started a conversation about population control.
Attachments
The fact is, that there is not one single thing people do that doesn't pollute, or effect the earth in one way or another.
A single factory produces far more waste and pollution than a couple hundred boats on the water. Oil leaks, from the trucks/vans/cars/trains/ships etc used to ship products pollute far more than all the recreational boats in the US, all of it eventually ends up in the waterways. Insecticides used on nearly every farm/lawn in the US is not really controlled (Oh you do need a license to spray some, but no limit on how often or where it can be used) All of it ends up in the water system. But, what did they target? bottom paint.
The problem with a bent survey like this is that some political group or even lone politician will end up passing a 'feel good' law to show what they are doing to clean up the environment. Ultimately, the law will have no effect on the overall water quality, but they will be able to point to it and say " see, I care, look what I did", of course the only group it will be aimed at is the recreational boater. Factories and shipping companies will be able to buy oil credits, will be grandfathered in like most city sewage systems, or exempt altogether for some reason or other.
Very simple fstbttms. Most of us resent the encroachment of government on our freedoms. We've seen way too much encroachment in recent years and as a result we are suspicious of endeavors like this survey as the first step in yet another assault.
You do not have the "right" to pollute public waterways. Even if this survey is the first step towards further clean water regulation (sheer speculation on your part, BTW) it does not represent "encroachment upon your freedoms." It represents the government doing what it us supposed to, protect this nation's natural resources so they can used and enjoyed by all.
fstbttms -
Why is it that you ONLY visibly support those environmental issues that support and enhance the income and betterment of DIVERS? I dont see your protestations, etc. for the protection of OTHER environmental issues but only those that subsidize your WALLET.
Why is it that you ONLY visibly support those environmental issues that support and enhance the income and betterment of DIVERS? I dont see your protestations, etc. for the protection of OTHER environmental issues but only those that subsidize your WALLET.
Please enlighten me about how a survey questioning whether boaters leak oil into the water or not "subsidizes my wallet." if you were to start a discussion about the benefits of strip mining or rain forest destruction, I would argue just as vociferously. Is your only defense if your position a lane attempt to somehow discredit me?
Didn't say I have the right to pollute anything. Didn't say I do pollute anything. But it is progressive ideas like this could be that have destroyed California as a desirable place to live and work. A progressive idea appears, then a study, then new "rule making", and pretty soon another freedom disappears in a wave of feel good unenforceable laws. I can see the end of all marine internal combustion motors on pleasure craft (non-commercial of course) down the road. Of course you laugh but who would have imagined holding tanks for waste back in 1950? How about ethanol? What happened to reliable, cheap, lightweight 2 stroke engines? People react this way because we have seen this far too often. It's sad but people simply don't trust the government.
Yeah, California sucks. Who wants to live where the weather's great, the sailing and beer are awesome and the women are beautiful? Not to mention the horrible forward- thinking progressive attitudes? What a hell-hole!
Wow. Friggin' ponderous.
Wow. Friggin' ponderous.
Bad Reprorting & Link To Survey Summary
I received a reply and a link to the Executive Summary. Here is the actual question:
Across all boaters surveyed, 96 ‐ 97 percent said oil leaks into thebottom of their bilge or engine compartment most of the time or every time they use their boat, while only 2 percent said it rarely or never leaks oil. These findings support the continued need and demonstrate the importance of educational programs to target use of preventative engine maintenance and pollution prevention tools such as oil absorbents to reduce oil pollution.
That's a lot different than reported. That's still a heck of a lot more leaking engines than I would have guessed by half!
Here is a link to the summary:
http://www.coastal.ca.gov/ccbn/FinalCABoatersReport_ExecSummary_July2011_DG.pdf
I received a reply and a link to the Executive Summary. Here is the actual question:
Across all boaters surveyed, 96 ‐ 97 percent said oil leaks into thebottom of their bilge or engine compartment most of the time or every time they use their boat, while only 2 percent said it rarely or never leaks oil. These findings support the continued need and demonstrate the importance of educational programs to target use of preventative engine maintenance and pollution prevention tools such as oil absorbents to reduce oil pollution.
That's a lot different than reported. That's still a heck of a lot more leaking engines than I would have guessed by half!
Here is a link to the summary:
http://www.coastal.ca.gov/ccbn/FinalCABoatersReport_ExecSummary_July2011_DG.pdf
"The purpose of this survey was to collect information on boater practices that would be useful to the partners in their efforts to better orient education and outreach efforts, and to identify gaps in boaters’ knowledge and the best ways to fill these gaps, without having to resort to speculation and assumptions.
By providing a snapshot of recreational boaters and boating behaviors in the State of California, the study’s findings allow the project partners to develop more effective and accurate boater outreach and education. The findings will also assist in developing new public education materials and targeting strategies to reduce potential sources of boat pollution.**Lastly, this study will provide useful information for all boater education and boat‐related pollution programs."
I'm sure all you tea baggers will read something sinister into this.
By providing a snapshot of recreational boaters and boating behaviors in the State of California, the study’s findings allow the project partners to develop more effective and accurate boater outreach and education. The findings will also assist in developing new public education materials and targeting strategies to reduce potential sources of boat pollution.**Lastly, this study will provide useful information for all boater education and boat‐related pollution programs."
I'm sure all you tea baggers will read something sinister into this.
Nobody has the right to pollute, discharge laws, pollution control measures and any other steps taken to protect the environment should be followed by every one. The problem is that it's not.
I'm sure all you tea baggers will read something sinister into this.
and regardless of how much you disagree with people, ad hominim attacks are pretty lame, More so when it can't be determined whether you mean they support the tea party, or indulge in the sex act you named..
It's always the same with the far left. When they have difficulty participating in the intellectual exchange of ideas, resort to personal attack.
Find the actual survey here:
http://www.coastal.ca.gov/ccbn/FinalCABoatersAppendices_July2011_DG.pdf
From the 07-09 survey:
q5_8 type of boat currently own: sailboat without anxiliary motor 94 3.5% of 2662**
I WAS wondering how "Only 2 percent said their boats rarely or never leaked oil." When
reading the survey something that also caught my eye was the question of how far do you take the used oil to disposed of it. I'm thinking that the way the survey is set up those answers would only be used to 'prove' that more facilities must be built, as used boat oil shouldn't be mixed with used car/truck oil,right?
Mostly I'm not too keen on the face value of newspaper reports of reports by muti-gov agencies anyway.
Something that also bugs me is the jaded attitude some take at the informed professionals among us without clearly looking at the topic at hand.
http://www.coastal.ca.gov/ccbn/FinalCABoatersAppendices_July2011_DG.pdf
From the 07-09 survey:
q5_8 type of boat currently own: sailboat without anxiliary motor 94 3.5% of 2662**
I WAS wondering how "Only 2 percent said their boats rarely or never leaked oil." When
reading the survey something that also caught my eye was the question of how far do you take the used oil to disposed of it. I'm thinking that the way the survey is set up those answers would only be used to 'prove' that more facilities must be built, as used boat oil shouldn't be mixed with used car/truck oil,right?
Mostly I'm not too keen on the face value of newspaper reports of reports by muti-gov agencies anyway.
Something that also bugs me is the jaded attitude some take at the informed professionals among us without clearly looking at the topic at hand.
OK, that's pretty funny. So 57% of sailboaters without motors leak oil into their bilges or engine compartments. Don't take that wrong; I literally find it funny. It is, however, well within a typical margin of error and all surveys have some anomalies.
Seems some of the western states often make laws based on those anomalies...i.e. bottom paint restrictions that only affect "recreational boats under 65'"
Help me understand how they keep that paint working right up to the 65' line and how does the paint know it is on a recreational boat.
Margin of error + CA & WA = New recreational boating laws.....
Now that makes sense.
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