The wiring on my recently acquired boat is a little crazy, so I'm in the beginning stages of mapping out how I want it set up. The image attached is my current basic plan which I am developing and working from. The setup is quite simple and I'd like to get feedback on things you see missing or that should be altered.
electric plan omissions and alterations?
- Thread starter njl
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Looks like a good start i really like my Bluesea ACR as i have no shorepower
I find i needed 4 breakers minimum for Nav lights
1. running lights
2. steaming light
3.deck light
4.Anchor light
I find i needed 4 breakers minimum for Nav lights
1. running lights
2. steaming light
3.deck light
4.Anchor light
Can you open a MS visio file? I have one that is a little more extensive that you can cut and past from.
Does an ACR have a function in a single battery bank system? I'll have a single battery bank for the combined "house" needs and engine starter. (The small diesel can be hand started if the battery fails.)
I have the Alternator going directly to the house bank and the ACR starts charging the cranking battery after about 2 minutes
The boats been in about a month and the whole deal seams to work perfect
I would think two battery's would be a good part of the upgrade and the bluesea switch keeps the house and cranking battery's separate in a simple way
The boats been in about a month and the whole deal seams to work perfect
I would think two battery's would be a good part of the upgrade and the bluesea switch keeps the house and cranking battery's separate in a simple way
Some thoughts:
1- Be sure you can hand start that engine. I've yet to meet anyone that could, when needed, in a sailboat. Hand starting an engine on a lee shore with an anchor dragging and a dead bank may not be able to be done in-time..
2- A "reserve" bank is just that a reserve. Like a savings account you don't use unless absolutely necessary. This necessity can arise from many issues relating to a house bank not just over drawing it. A bad cell or just a failure of the battery can put you in a bad position. Having two banks that can be electrically isolated, and removed or taken off line, and another one brought on-line, if needed, is a great option.
3- A battery switch should be in the circuit
4- Consider fusing your house bank with a fuse rated to protect the battery cable and one that can handle the starting loads. This is a simple safety feature and part of the ABYC standard.
5- You should not pull 20A or 15A outlets of a 30A shore power breaker unless you want the potential to melt wires and start a fire. You'll need an AC need a sub panel or an AC panel with a main breaker and a few subs.. With AC & DC on-board an AC/DC panel may be a less expensive and require less space for an install.
6- You should have your battery charger "switched" through an AC breaker properly sized for the wires feeding the charger..
7- If wiring the alt direct to the bank consider a simple on/off battery switch or breaker with an AIC rating of 5000A, Blue Seas makes them. This allows you to disconnect the alt if working on the engine to prevent "zaps". It is also a good idea to fuse anything connected directly to a battery, as close to the battery as possible, and the breaker would serve both purposes.
8- Ideally a bilge pump draws directly from the house bank with its own MAN/OFF/AUTO switch and a fuse never rated for more than what the pump manufacturer calls for..
9- Keep in mind that your AC GREEN grounding wires get connected to the boats DC ground and also tie back through the shore power circuit. AC WHITE and AC GREEN should never be connected on-board the boat. AC WHITE and AC GREEN are only ever connected at a "source" which in your case is the marina's shore system panel.
10- When adding AC to a boat you'll want a galvanic isolator, preferably one of the "fail safe" designs..
11- Your DC panel will need more breakers if you want to be legal with running lights and connected as shown. You would need; All Round, Running Lights, Steaming Light, in addition to what you have as I am guessing "lights" is for cabin lighting?
Unfortunately when adding AC to a boat you really remove "simple" from the equation, to do it correctly and safe...
MainSail is a conservative chap, who sails in (errr.. near?) the unforgiving rocks of Maine. His scenario of dead engine, lee shore, dragging anchor is appropriate for him -- and for most of us as well. However, if your boat is used as a day sailor, with scarce overnights, you may be OK without belts and suspenders. The Olson 30 I race Wed nights on has a car battery, of unknown age, and it does a good job of running our speedo for 2 hours once a week. But his point about hand cranking it is valid -- try it at least once. Even if it isn't night, the anchor isn't dragging, and the shore isn't lee, if you wake up to a dead calm morning with an equally dead battery -- if you can't hand crank it, you aren't going home.
With regard to the reserve, it really is the right answer, and you can do this a lot easier than it may seem. My boat has an ancient Volvo MD11C, a 2 cylinder diesel. When I first got the boat, the batteries were HORRIBLE -- but I wanted to hold off on new batteries until I made some related improvements, like a proper battery box. My little Honda Civic, with a battery the size of a small lunch box, "loaned" me its battery as a reserve. I did test it, and that battery was more than enough to start the engine -- and did on several mornings! While my reserve now is a Group 32 deep cycle, you could put in a cheap ultra-small automotive battery as a reserve. Remember, its only purpose is to start the engine when all Hell breaks loose. You could even leave it out of the alternator charge routine if you spend most of your time on shore power and charge it on shore power -- just like a car that has been sitting for 2 weeks has enough to start, this little battery should do the same. You would, of course, need a 1-2-b switch and a fuse for the reserve.
My comments above are not to say that this is the answer for a world cruise. It is an effective answer for low-use, day sailing and occasional overnight, in protected waters (like the Chesapeake Bay). It also gives you a safe fall-back to get you going while you consider what you REALLY want to do.
Harry
Rantum Scoot
'79 Sabre 34
Mill Creek, Annapolis
I've uploaded a modified drawing per some of your comments. Thanks very much for all the suggestions!
Another sailor here suggested that I take along a jump starter kit which I plan to do.
Added to drawing.
Added to drawing.
If one uses wire that is rated for 30A on each outlet, why would there be a fire hazard?
Added to drawing.
Added to drawing.
How important is this? It seems like a many boaters do not have one wired in. My thought is that with GFCIs in the outlets and proper ground wiring, an isolator would not be necessary on a fiberglass boat.
Added to drawing.
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First you'd need a 120V 30A rated outlet, very hard to find in the proper pin configuration, and expensive if you can find one. You'd need 10/3 wire vs. 14/3 $$$$$ and lastly it is against the applicable codes to use your DC main breaker as a branch circuit breaker and also the outlet amp rating needs to be matched to the wire & breaker. An AC panel with two or three branch breakers is likely less money than the added expense of finding the 30A rated sockets and the jump from 14/3 to 10/3 wire..
By applicable standards a permanently installed battery charger, and the outlets, are required to have their own branch circuit breakers off the main breaker.
For this you could use a Main +6 panel like the Blue Seas 8027, (you don't need the six but it is the least expensive Main+ panel from Blue Seas) it runs about $160.00 with a main breaker and three branch breakers already installed. By contrast the Blue Sea 30A main breaker PN 8079 runs close to $80.00 by itself. You would almost certainly make up that $80.00 difference in wire and sourcing the 30A outlets, if you even can source them, and you'd still have a boat that would not pass an insurance survey by a competent surveyor...
When you plug into shore power you are now connected to everyone else's improper wiring. A GI or isolation transformer electrically isolates your grounding system from the other boats that can pose problems for you. If you don't mind the potential for an eroding prop, shaft, rudder gudgeons, thru-hulls & seacocks then you will be fine...
Your electrical diagram is coming along. A couple of thoughts on the Hot Side wiring.
* You have a fuse, that is good. However, you are only showing it on one wire. ALL power needs to have a fuse, ideally within 7" of the battery. It can, of course, all be the same fuse...
* The MRBF is a really slick deal, and it gives an almost instant way to install a fuse on an existing boat. The fuses are expensive, and can rack up fast if you try and install several.
* I really don't like lots of things on my battery terminals. The battery is often kind of acidy, it is a haven for corrosion, it moves around a bit (OK, if tied down, not much), and when you remove it all the connections have to be removed and then CORRECTLY reinstalled.
* I only have ONE battery cable on each battery, and it runs 10 inches (OK, I'm not ABYC compliant, but it is an old-boat retrofit, and I'm happy) to a 200A ANL fuse. The protected side of the fuse is where everything else is connected. I come off that 200A fuse to the battery switch, and a short #6 lead (7" long) goest to a surface mounted 100A breaker. The protected side of that breaker is the start of a system that gets my battery monitor, alternator output, battery charger, bilge pump, stereo backup power, and all that other stuff that "has to go straight to the battery."
Some might disagree with my approach, but I really like it. Everything is well protected, the battery has one 1/0 lead going direct to a high power fuse, my "important" loads are only 1 heavy duty fuse and 1 heavy duty breaker away from the battery, and nothing clutters up my battery box.
To follow up on my earlier comment about a single battery, or a very small reserve battery. Your "jump box" is in the same general category. The concept of very minimal electric reserver works well for small day sailors (J/24, Olson 30, etc) and is something to consider for your first year while you think about solutions (exactly what you are doing right now). However, your boat is not, by genetics, a "local daysailor." Her blood line is distance cruising, and even if you are not at a point in life right now to do so, you probably intend to do serious local cruising, not 2-hour day trips. My battery arrangment (on a Sabre 34, 13,000 lbs, local cruising), which is 2 Trojan T-105's for the house bank and a group 32 deep cycle reserve, is probably the minimum you should shoot for as your "end state." You may be in the postion I have been for the last 2 years, where you are trying to decide which "critcial, must-have" items you will do now, and which you will put off, in which case your single battery with a "jump box" is a decent short term solution.
Oh, one last thing -- check out vteworld.com They used to make stuff for Blue Seas, and it's good stuff. They sell direct to the consumer at good prices.
Harry
* You have a fuse, that is good. However, you are only showing it on one wire. ALL power needs to have a fuse, ideally within 7" of the battery. It can, of course, all be the same fuse...
* The MRBF is a really slick deal, and it gives an almost instant way to install a fuse on an existing boat. The fuses are expensive, and can rack up fast if you try and install several.
* I really don't like lots of things on my battery terminals. The battery is often kind of acidy, it is a haven for corrosion, it moves around a bit (OK, if tied down, not much), and when you remove it all the connections have to be removed and then CORRECTLY reinstalled.
* I only have ONE battery cable on each battery, and it runs 10 inches (OK, I'm not ABYC compliant, but it is an old-boat retrofit, and I'm happy) to a 200A ANL fuse. The protected side of the fuse is where everything else is connected. I come off that 200A fuse to the battery switch, and a short #6 lead (7" long) goest to a surface mounted 100A breaker. The protected side of that breaker is the start of a system that gets my battery monitor, alternator output, battery charger, bilge pump, stereo backup power, and all that other stuff that "has to go straight to the battery."
Some might disagree with my approach, but I really like it. Everything is well protected, the battery has one 1/0 lead going direct to a high power fuse, my "important" loads are only 1 heavy duty fuse and 1 heavy duty breaker away from the battery, and nothing clutters up my battery box.
To follow up on my earlier comment about a single battery, or a very small reserve battery. Your "jump box" is in the same general category. The concept of very minimal electric reserver works well for small day sailors (J/24, Olson 30, etc) and is something to consider for your first year while you think about solutions (exactly what you are doing right now). However, your boat is not, by genetics, a "local daysailor." Her blood line is distance cruising, and even if you are not at a point in life right now to do so, you probably intend to do serious local cruising, not 2-hour day trips. My battery arrangment (on a Sabre 34, 13,000 lbs, local cruising), which is 2 Trojan T-105's for the house bank and a group 32 deep cycle reserve, is probably the minimum you should shoot for as your "end state." You may be in the postion I have been for the last 2 years, where you are trying to decide which "critcial, must-have" items you will do now, and which you will put off, in which case your single battery with a "jump box" is a decent short term solution.
Oh, one last thing -- check out vteworld.com They used to make stuff for Blue Seas, and it's good stuff. They sell direct to the consumer at good prices.
Harry
And after all the problems Main points out, you have this to consider. If somehow you got suitably sized wires to an outlet, and if you found an outlet rated for it (I don't think they are made), you then will plug in a little table lamp which is wired with #16 zip cord. Bad enough in a 20A outlet (but somehow legal in houses....), but when your device grows an internal short, that #16 cord will glow red.
Harry
I see what you're saying about the 30 Amp breaker being a mismatch on 20 Amp sockets. I've updated the diagram with a 20 Amp breaker box there. As for the GI unit, seems like a must on a metal boat, but a relatively pricey ad-on to a boat that will be plugged in sporadically. I'll look more into it, though and thanks a lot for all your feedback.
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She's been in NYC for the last several years; I acquired in January, but haven't changed the home port. I'd love to sail up that way.
Replies #11 and #12 in this link provide a good explanation of the 1-2B switch and a simple, clear, easy to understand DC wiring diagram
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4949.0.html
Your DC side seems a tad confusing and perhaps incorrect.
Batteries should go TO the switch. The C post on the switch should feed the DC distribution and the power to the starter. In any case, if you want to fuse your starter, you should also provide a switch. And if you're switching your alternator, you want to fuse it at the house bank.
If you choose to use two switches, have a read on this with links to many, many wiring diagrams: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5977.0.html
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4949.0.html
Your DC side seems a tad confusing and perhaps incorrect.
Batteries should go TO the switch. The C post on the switch should feed the DC distribution and the power to the starter. In any case, if you want to fuse your starter, you should also provide a switch. And if you're switching your alternator, you want to fuse it at the house bank.
If you choose to use two switches, have a read on this with links to many, many wiring diagrams: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5977.0.html
njl
The sockets are usually 15 amp. The incoming shorepower is commonly 30 amp. It doesn't make sense to plug a 30 amp shorepower cord into a 20 amp breaker. You should keep the 30 amp double breaker and from there go to separate 15 amp breakers for each load - charger, outlets, etc. Below are pics of the one Maine suggested as well as an alternative with 2 less breaker positions.
The sockets are usually 15 amp. The incoming shorepower is commonly 30 amp. It doesn't make sense to plug a 30 amp shorepower cord into a 20 amp breaker. You should keep the 30 amp double breaker and from there go to separate 15 amp breakers for each load - charger, outlets, etc. Below are pics of the one Maine suggested as well as an alternative with 2 less breaker positions.
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