Great post, I will simply add I hate using mole, vice or any other type of locking grip on studs. Make the small investment and buy a proper stud extractor! They simply wrap around the exposed stud and the harder you unwind it the tighter they grip, like a mini oil filter or strap wrench. I bought one 20 years ago and I am still using it... Thankfully not to often!
bolts snapped off. what now?
- Thread starter Stephen Trapani
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Update!
Back from the boat and first let me say thank you all for all the help. What a great resource this place is! Here's what's happened since my last post:
I loved the idea of taking off the manifold and being able to bring the whole mess out of the cramped compartment, off the boat and home where I could fuss over it at my leisure for weeks! I went to sleep Saturday night with that wonderful dream in mind, woke still in the dream, went out to the boat still in the dream as one by one each of the six nuts came loose, off, and everything else came loose.
When I tried to slide the manifold off the bolts, it came up hard against a wall/bulkhead! As best I can tell it wasn't even close to clearing, needing maybe another inch of clearance I just didn't have. The dream died a hard, ugly death as visions of sawzalls cutting walls and loosened motor mounts faded into the second hour and a half wasted putting it all back together. Oh well, it was a nice dream while it lasted! A smarter mechanic than I would have eyeballed that carefully before trying it and seen there was no room, saving himself three hours! Maybe there's something else even smarter a smarter mechanic would have done. I did find it strange there was no gasket between the block and the manifold. Metal on metal.
So I'm back to having my buddies spray the PB Blaster on the busted bolts and mount gasket every other day (After they come down the 200 stairs and paddle out to the boat) for a week or two. The mixing elbow mount is still stuck to the manifold even after rapping it with the hammer and spraying the PB in the joint overnight. Hopefully that will come off soon and we will have three exposed bolts. My plan is use all of your great ideas: find the right sized extractor (the set at the store didn't have one small enough) get the cold spray stuff and have a torch ready and go at it again in a week or three when I can get back up there. Thoughts?
Back from the boat and first let me say thank you all for all the help. What a great resource this place is! Here's what's happened since my last post:
I loved the idea of taking off the manifold and being able to bring the whole mess out of the cramped compartment, off the boat and home where I could fuss over it at my leisure for weeks! I went to sleep Saturday night with that wonderful dream in mind, woke still in the dream, went out to the boat still in the dream as one by one each of the six nuts came loose, off, and everything else came loose.
When I tried to slide the manifold off the bolts, it came up hard against a wall/bulkhead! As best I can tell it wasn't even close to clearing, needing maybe another inch of clearance I just didn't have. The dream died a hard, ugly death as visions of sawzalls cutting walls and loosened motor mounts faded into the second hour and a half wasted putting it all back together. Oh well, it was a nice dream while it lasted! A smarter mechanic than I would have eyeballed that carefully before trying it and seen there was no room, saving himself three hours! Maybe there's something else even smarter a smarter mechanic would have done. I did find it strange there was no gasket between the block and the manifold. Metal on metal.
So I'm back to having my buddies spray the PB Blaster on the busted bolts and mount gasket every other day (After they come down the 200 stairs and paddle out to the boat) for a week or two. The mixing elbow mount is still stuck to the manifold even after rapping it with the hammer and spraying the PB in the joint overnight. Hopefully that will come off soon and we will have three exposed bolts. My plan is use all of your great ideas: find the right sized extractor (the set at the store didn't have one small enough) get the cold spray stuff and have a torch ready and go at it again in a week or three when I can get back up there. Thoughts?
Is there enough space between the block and the manifold to reach in with Vice Grips and unscrew the studs from the block .. ?? Not pleasant, but may be do-able.. Or is there enough space on the nut ends of the stud to "double nut" and unscrew the studs? Probably 6 of 'em.. very tedious, but might be something to consider.
Yeah, there probably is enough room to unbolt the studs. No problem with scoring the studs with the vice grip?
Longitudinal grooves aren't a problem, but circular ones are.. If ya gonna re-use the studs (ya can probably find new ones at a local fastener shop) you'd probably want to clean 'em up with before re-use.. not necessary to completely remove the grooves, but file off the raised metal.. If you go with new ones, get 'em a little longer to be able to double nut and unscrew .. Use anti-seize when ya go back up.. Good luck!
So the dream lives. It's nowhere near as wonderful with the thought of the tedium, cramped conditions and huge fear of snapping off one of those studs in the block! Maybe I should still proceed with having them keep spraying the damn elbow joint and broken bolts, see where that plan goes, and have the manifold removal plan as a backup if things get too ugly? Hmm.
Left hand drill bit
In the course of trying to drill out a broken off bolt... few know that there are left handed drill bits available... many times in the course of drilling a bolt out with regular drill bits, the bit will bite and turn the broken bolt in deper... with a left hand drill bit, you would love to see the bit bite ... and unscrew the bolt right out of the hole !!
Yes, if I can't get off the protruding bolts I'll go to the left hand bits before the easy outs.jaysandy said:
Okay, I've had time to settle down and think. I'm pretty sure I can get a nut on the manifold studs and then get the manifold off. What should I do to be sure I don't snap one off in the block? Even though the motor is 30 years old, there is generally no corrosion except right there at the mixing elbow that I was trying to replace. But I figured I should take all precautions. What are all the precautions? I want to take no chances with the snapping off a stud in the block.
Instead of using vice grips try to get a stud wrench. This is a toggle type wrench that applies more tightening force the more torque you apply. With vice grips as you apply more torque they tend to just shear the metal, then you reset the position, tighten a little more, try again only to shear again. Of course by then you should realize the stud isn't coming out so go back to the PB. I've made the same mistake of breaking off a bold and drilling it out and breaking an easy out. I doubt I'll ever use an easy out again. Better to drill it out to the tap drill size and just tap the hole.
Sorry, what I'm trying to say is that I can get the double nuts on the ends of the studs. I guess I should take the nuts off pull the manifold up, try to get PB blaster near the threads in the block, wait overnight, push the manifold back down and then try to double nut them out? What other precautions?
I'd give the PB Blaster more than overnight - at least three days of lube and tapping before putting a wrench on them. It can't do any harm. Those bolts have been in there a long time. You have to give them a chance to get used to the idea of turning. Think of your first girl friend 
You said the engine would run? Run it up to operating temperature. That will expand the block and give everything a good shaking to get the penetrating oil creeping. Let it cool overnight then run it up hot the next day.
I also favor Kano Kroil oil over PB Blaster. Nothing against PB Blaster but I've seen Kroil creep where nothing else would.
Carl
You said the engine would run? Run it up to operating temperature. That will expand the block and give everything a good shaking to get the penetrating oil creeping. Let it cool overnight then run it up hot the next day.
I also favor Kano Kroil oil over PB Blaster. Nothing against PB Blaster but I've seen Kroil creep where nothing else would.
Carl
Stephen,
If you do need to use a torch remember the PB that you sprayed on the engine. You probably don't need a fire on top of everything else!
Just saw a great idea on the car site I frequent. If the stud is flush with the surface or even just a little below, place a large fender washer over it then weld it to the stud. Then weld a nut to the fender washer. The welding material won't stick to the cast iron. It the nut breaks off repeat as necessary until you can remove it. Neat trick!
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,82567.0.html
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,82567.0.html
So I got the gasket and mixing elbow off the manifold. Here is a shot of the three broken bolts sticking out of the manifold. Plenty sticking out, which is hopeful. The plan now is to spray PB Blaster every other day for two weeks. I was thinking this morning I might be able to get two nuts on these and get them out that way. In two weeks we will get the torch, cold spray, vise grips and every other implement of destruction that might help down there and go at it.
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Stud Wrench
I highly recommend getting a stud wrench having used vise gripes with so much unsuccess with them and having used stud wrench with sucess and very good in tight spots.
You won't be sorry $$$ spent on such a tool and not wanting to break those studs and than having big trouble.
Nick
I highly recommend getting a stud wrench having used vise gripes with so much unsuccess with them and having used stud wrench with sucess and very good in tight spots.
You won't be sorry $$$ spent on such a tool and not wanting to break those studs and than having big trouble.
Nick
This is how the manifold looked before last weekend. Three bolts with heads snapped off. We soaked with PB Blaster every other day for two weeks. I obtained the extractors pictured in the above post. Planned on torching the manifold and letting wax soak into the bolt (which I learned off YouTube) before using the extractors.
My buddy Mike also brought a small pipe wrench. He wanted to try the pipe wrench first without even heating anything. He insisted he wouldn't break the bolts. It was a tight fit for flames in there with fuel lines and the two cables you can see in the photo, so I could see the wisdom... Started top right. Broke the bolt loose with the wrench! Put on the extractor and screwed it out! Tried the same thing on the bottom right one. Broke it loose! Put on the extractor and got it the rest of the way out! Elapsed time: 30 minutes! Tight fit with the wrench on the left lower last one. Tried the extractor first this time. Tight. "Let's heat this one," I said. "Yeah" he said, "let me just try a little more torque first. I won't break it." SNAP! It snapped off. Not down flush, but leaving about a quarter inch sticking out. Extractor no longer grabs it. Neither does pipe wrench. Spent the rest of the weekend with a variety of vice grips, MAAP torch, freezy stuff, trying to get it out. Elapsed time: 16 hours. No love.
Small needle nose vice grip will grab it pretty well. We decided to drop back and punt, soak it for another week and think. My next plan is to use a bigger needle nose vice grip with another vice grip gripping it, torch, wax, and pray. If that doesn't work, we'll sail/limp/tow it to a marina and weld a nut onto it. Then to frigging "Easy outs," but I don't really want to go there so... <looks for fingers crossed smilie>
My buddy Mike also brought a small pipe wrench. He wanted to try the pipe wrench first without even heating anything. He insisted he wouldn't break the bolts. It was a tight fit for flames in there with fuel lines and the two cables you can see in the photo, so I could see the wisdom... Started top right. Broke the bolt loose with the wrench! Put on the extractor and screwed it out! Tried the same thing on the bottom right one. Broke it loose! Put on the extractor and got it the rest of the way out! Elapsed time: 30 minutes! Tight fit with the wrench on the left lower last one. Tried the extractor first this time. Tight. "Let's heat this one," I said. "Yeah" he said, "let me just try a little more torque first. I won't break it." SNAP! It snapped off. Not down flush, but leaving about a quarter inch sticking out. Extractor no longer grabs it. Neither does pipe wrench. Spent the rest of the weekend with a variety of vice grips, MAAP torch, freezy stuff, trying to get it out. Elapsed time: 16 hours. No love.
Small needle nose vice grip will grab it pretty well. We decided to drop back and punt, soak it for another week and think. My next plan is to use a bigger needle nose vice grip with another vice grip gripping it, torch, wax, and pray. If that doesn't work, we'll sail/limp/tow it to a marina and weld a nut onto it. Then to frigging "Easy outs," but I don't really want to go there so... <looks for fingers crossed smilie>
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