Full keel boaters and backing from slip!

Joe · May 27, 2011

Both my neighbors do the same thing, for the same reason... it's easier. Their boats are full keel with keel hung rudders.... one outboard one inboard.... 26 and 27 footers.... Since we're on downwind slips it's pretty easy to just ease the boat out with the docklines, spin the boat sideways and hop on...

sloopy · May 27, 2011

My Cape Dory 25 sloop has no control in reverse at all. I usually walk the bow out, haul the side up and kick off, crawl back to the cockpit and motor away. A few times I've tried it using lines around the dock cleats, too. It is what it is and without an additional aux. engine of some sort like a troilling motor, it's the only way to get going.
sloopy
"you see a lot of foolish sailors and you see a lot of older sailors. But you seldom see any older, foolish sailors."

Roger Long · May 27, 2011

It's quite dynamic and each boat has different characteristics so you have to take generalizations carefully.

Prop walk will usually overpower the rudder but doesn't take effect immediately. The usual method for backing is to get the boat moving, put the engine in neutral, and then put the rudder hard over so that it is the only force on the stern. Sometimes a brief application of forward gear will kick the stern back into line without stopping the boat. Backing any distance can involve a lot of work with the gear lever.

I singlehand a lot so have a lot of practice backing out of slips. I always try to get one where my prop walk swings the stern in when I apply reverse for the same reason. Docking where the prop walk pulls your stern away from the dock without a crew to handle lines is tough. This means that reverse is pulling my stern towards the dock but this can be used to advantage.

I walk my boat back as far as I can. The midships cleat is just about five feet forward of the cleat on the end of the dock with the line looped around only outside horn and the end made fast to the cleat. The bow line is set up the same way and a forward spring line holds the boat forward. The spring is just run around the forward cleat horn and held in my hand.

I flip the spring off, give the boat a push off and a bit forward, step sprightly to the wheel and put her in reverse. She backs out, the lines drop off the cleat horns, and the prop walk starts her turning so the bow swings away from the finger and towards the channel.

I then put her in forward and power up the channel a bit, ignoring all the powerboaters shouting that I have lines in the water, until I can position on the upwind side and stop to bring in the dock lines. The bow loop is short enough that there is no danger of it getting in the prop and I reach down and snatch in the sternline as soon as it drops off.

Depending on wind, there are variations in the procedure. Sometimes I have a spring looped the same way. Sometimes I have to pull the boat over and raft up to the one on the other side of the slip to have time to back out before the wind blows the boat into the finger. In calm conditions, I just cast off and push the boat out into the slip but I still move it back as far as possible first.

Pre-positioning and planning is the key.

TomY · May 27, 2011

Brian D said:
How hard is it to back a full keel boat? How much room do you need? Does the boat start to turn when one moves the tiller or wheel when backing?

I know a guy who has a full keel boat and he walks it out of his slip, then boards and motors away from the dock. Nothing wrong with his reverse. He just says the boat does not turn easy out of the slip.

Thoughts?

I'm with your friend. My full keel boat simply pulls the stern to starboard in reverse so I use that to advantage when I can, and try not to fight it, when it's a disadvantage. The boats easier to handle from the dock by guiding it manually as much as you can, helpful lines can finish the maneuver if needed, all done slowly without panic.

That's a good way to handle any boat I think.

Mike Turner · May 27, 2011

Full keel boats are notorious for backing down poorly, although as Roger says, different boats do things differently. It's partly a factor of rudder design and placement relative to the prop; and whether the prop is offset or on the centerline.

Our schooner is full keel with a large, barn door-type rudder hung from the keel and a prop on the centerline. Prop walk is hard to starboard in reverse. We have to back into our slip (two pilings outboard, a bulkhead inboard and a very short fingerpier). As Kris suggests, we try to the extent possible to use the prop walk to our advantage. We approach the slip counterclockwise arc, genreally with the boat in neutral quite a ways out (we make a lot of way due to inertia) so that by the time we're about a boatlength away we're perpendicular to the slip and about 10' or so off the outboard pilings. Then we make a hard turn to port to line up with the slip, using bursts in forward in reverse to simultaneously stop the boat and pull the stern around. Then, as Roger says, it's short bursts in reverse, to get the boat moving backwards; alternating with neutral for steering control and the occasional burst in forward to counteract the prop walk. Generally we get about 1/3 of the way into the slip and then walk forward to the pilings, grab the bow lines and walk them forward to cleat them off. Then a couple of short bursts in reverse pull us back into the slip so we can get the stern lines. The bow line length keeps us off the bulkhead, even with the boat in reverse.

It's a dance, and it works about 50% of the time. Occasionally a crosswind will push the bow around and mess things up.

Experiment in open, calm water with your boat to see what it takes to back up in a straight line. You may find a method that allows you to back out, or you may find that, like others, it's best to walk the boat out to avoid dock-bumping. I'm pretty sure, with our boat, that I'd walk the boat out if I was backing out of the slip.

Mike Turner
Lazyjack 32 schooner "Mary'Lis"
Mobile Bay, Alabama

Gary_H · May 27, 2011

Yea I have a friend (I know, hard to believe) that has a 35 ft full keel yawl. It doesn't back worth a crap... easier to use warps to rotate out of the slip.

Roger Long · May 27, 2011

It's best, even with smaller boats, to always "walk" them out with lines if there is any wind. If a wake or sudden gust comes up, the boat will be controllable without crew and guest pushing and pulling hard on the top lifeline and getting distracted from the business at hand by you yelling, "Don't push on the lifelines!" I always try to make this point first before any docking or undocking maneuver. I also usually wave off dockside "help" for the same reason.

When briefing your crew, emphasize that they are never to stand on the dock holding the end of a rope that goes directly to the boat. They can't do much with it and they risk getting pulled into the water or dropping it in a panic when you really need a line. The line always goes around something, a cleat horn or a ring, first. To pull, they reach down and grab the part that goes to the boat as far out as they can reach easily, pull, take in the slack, repeat. Show them how to do this first.

No one pulls or holds a rope that goes directly to the boat unless it is just before they toss it aboard.

Eric M · May 27, 2011

We have a full keel on our boat and as others have said, each boat behaves differently. Yes, ours is certanly more easy to steer when moving forward than it is in reverse. Now having said that I back into our slip 50% of the time and come in nose first the other 50% of the time. It all depends on the tide. In our location the tide runs parallel with the finger pier to which we tie. Typical marina setup where the finger pier is perpendicular to the fairway. Whenever the tide is pushing us into the slip I back in. If you come in forward the boat has to be moving thru the water to have steerage so with a 2 knot tide and 2 knots of boat speed thru the water you are approaching the dock very quickly. If you back in and basically let the tide pull you in using forward gear for steering and breaks it is much, much more controlled. The added benefit is you are now bow out for you next departure.
Either in or out of the slip, an offer for a hand from someone on the dock is always accepted with instructions of what is needed provided. As Roger said, always hand someone a line with instructions on where to secure it. It is amazing how many dockhands and boaters will take a line and try to hold onto it without wraping it around something.
With a single spring line on the midship cleat tided short to the dock you and either power forward or reverse to keep the boat parallel to the dock as required until additional lines are secured.

zeehag · May 27, 2011

really hate to say this-- but i have to-- my formosa came out of the slip in ensenada in reverse quite nicely-- didnt do as does my ericson, make a sharp turn to port--lol-- went back nicely and only needed a lil goose from engine to gain enough speed to steer.....
goood luck and fair winds....

capjules · May 27, 2011

what helped me the most was reading an article I found on docking that explained that most of docking is done in neutral, a new concept for me. that way you use the prop walk when you want to and to your advantage and not fight against it.

give it a burst in reverse then go right to neutral so it goes straight and then asses your situation based on how the wind is pushing you and make your next decision.
with the very high freeboard especially on my bow I have to consider any wind at all and how it will affect the boat.

my bow weather vanes down wind with any breeze at all so sometimes I can just
go straight out in reverse if the wind is on the stern in the direction I want to go.
for us it's always a fluid situation getting out of the dock in reverse and more of an art than a science.

some days we make it look so easy we get congratulations from any by standers at the dock, and some days it's quite a sloppy affair, just have to take it with a grain of salt....

I just give it short bursts in forward or reverse and stay in neutral most of the time and see how it is responding until we are clear. and how much room I need depends on how windy it is and from what direction. the marina I am in now is pretty tight between piers but we manage.

but in south Florida I would not want anything but a full keel as there are areas mined with hundreds and hundreds of crab pots and when i used to have a fin keeler it was impossible to sail at night, three times got lines on my prop sailing at night, said that's it won't sail in those areas at night again. with the full keel, nothing ever gets caught on our prop. we can sail at night through the crab pot fields with no worries.

sloopy · May 28, 2011

Reverse from a slip

As I stated earlier, backing out is next to impossible in my Cape Dory 25. In thinking about this a little more, I believe it is because the outboard prop is so far removed from the rudder that there is little, if any, strong flow to steer the boat.
Larger boats with regular inboards (A4's or diesels) generally don't have this issue as the prop is usually between the keel and the rudder so flow is high and close and controllable.
Smaller vessels with o/b's can be steered fairly well if the o/b is transom mounted and steering control is indirect or direct from the cockpit.
But in the Cape Dory 25 design, where the o/b sits in a deep well and is locked into one position, the steering capability in reverse is zero. Just ain't gonna happen.......
thanks,
sloopy
"FAIR WINDS TO ALL AND TO ALL A GOOD VOYAGE!"

Ross · May 28, 2011

I have to back into my slip but am portside to the breakwater. Once we get the boat turned to line up with the slip I let it idle in reverse and guide it with the boat hook. I have a dock neighbor who runs a line from an outer piling to the dock and clips a stern line to that fixed line to keep his boat from straying.

Mario G · May 28, 2011

All I can say is I'm happy that I figured out how to back our E-32 out of different slips before I found out that having a full keel it was a problem.

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