Stupid question 1874-B
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No worries Cool.
When I worked at the boat plants in the 70's I probably installed over a hundred A-4's personally and didn't know their pedigree either until I joined the Moyer Marine forum a few years ago. I don't expect those terrified of gasoline on board to convert but really, if properly maintained our A-4's are true gems. I'll say it again, I LOVE mine.
When I worked at the boat plants in the 70's I probably installed over a hundred A-4's personally and didn't know their pedigree either until I joined the Moyer Marine forum a few years ago. I don't expect those terrified of gasoline on board to convert but really, if properly maintained our A-4's are true gems. I'll say it again, I LOVE mine.
Interesting, Neil. I believe the Palmer was derived from the Willys - Overland Jeep engine which was derived from the Austin. I used to be a part owner of a classic launch that had similar four marinized for which a lot of parts interchanged.
Gas engines do not stand up as well to the beating of high load (torque) for extended times. They also require fairly fresh fuel which means that a tank of gas that might take years to use is problematic. Diesel will grow greenies over time but additives will lessen this problem much better than gas additives. Diesel retains a better power producing feature over time than gas.
Diesel engines are also built Much stronger than gas engines and over time, and with the abuses of time, maintain the ability to produce power. Diesel fuel provides better lubrication to the cylinders and pistons where gas engines that are used for short periods of time tend to wash the cylinders down and allow rust to bloom when not used on a regular basis. Finally, unless the gas engine is fuel injected the carb doesn't stand up anywhere near as well as the injected diesel unless used on a regular basis.
The list goes on and on about why diesel engines are the power of choise even though they are 3 to 4 times more expensive.
The Honda is a beautiful motor on a bike and there is a reason it's not in a sailboat. The Atomic 4 motor was the answer during that time period but with the extended life of newer sailboats it just wasn't strong enough.
Ray
Diesel engines are also built Much stronger than gas engines and over time, and with the abuses of time, maintain the ability to produce power. Diesel fuel provides better lubrication to the cylinders and pistons where gas engines that are used for short periods of time tend to wash the cylinders down and allow rust to bloom when not used on a regular basis. Finally, unless the gas engine is fuel injected the carb doesn't stand up anywhere near as well as the injected diesel unless used on a regular basis.
The list goes on and on about why diesel engines are the power of choise even though they are 3 to 4 times more expensive.
The Honda is a beautiful motor on a bike and there is a reason it's not in a sailboat. The Atomic 4 motor was the answer during that time period but with the extended life of newer sailboats it just wasn't strong enough.
Ray
Rick,
Your comment about parts interchange is also interesting. The Atomic 4 parts don't interchange with anything further debunking the often assumed tractor/industrial engine background.
Ray,
Opinions vary. All I can add is your post and my experience do not mesh. 20,000 engines still in service, the youngest of which is 27 years old, speaks for itself.
Your comment about parts interchange is also interesting. The Atomic 4 parts don't interchange with anything further debunking the often assumed tractor/industrial engine background.
Ray,
Opinions vary. All I can add is your post and my experience do not mesh. 20,000 engines still in service, the youngest of which is 27 years old, speaks for itself.
So, Neil, we had a Grey Marine which was a Continental, which, I understand, was derived from the Jeep era design which was the Willys, etc. I do know some A4 valve parts did interchange.
BTW, I had an A4 on my Columbia 28. Great engine once I put a BIG fuel filter on it and fixed the carb. It was super quiet and no vibration. A very pleasant engine compared to the single cylinder Yanmar on my O'Day 27!
BTW, I had an A4 on my Columbia 28. Great engine once I put a BIG fuel filter on it and fixed the carb. It was super quiet and no vibration. A very pleasant engine compared to the single cylinder Yanmar on my O'Day 27!
As the boating season gets into full swing, a new study released by BoatU.S. Marine Insurance indicates that the leading causes of fires aboard vessels are AC & DC wiring problems, engine and transmission overheating, and fuel leaks.
Leading the pack, "AC & DC wiring/appliances" accounted for a whopping 55% of fires. The report further detailed the electrical sources into subcategories such as DC shorts/wiring (30%), DC engine regulator (12%), shore power (4%) and other causes. "Wire chafe is the biggest problem we see," adds Fort. "Electrical fires can also re-ignite even after an extinguisher has been emptied, so it's also important to have a main battery switch and/or AC breaker to stop the ignition source."
he #2 cause, "engine/transmission overheating," had 24% of the claims. Obstructed intake or exhaust cooling water passages are the main cause for hose or impeller meltdowns, which lead to overheating. Keeping these clear, especially exhaust manifolds and risers, as well as regular replacement of pump impellers, would have prevented most of these fires.
"Fuel leaks, " the #3 cause, came in with 8% of claims. Typical problem areas are fuel lines, fuel connections on the engine itself, and leaking tanks.
Leading the pack, "AC & DC wiring/appliances" accounted for a whopping 55% of fires. The report further detailed the electrical sources into subcategories such as DC shorts/wiring (30%), DC engine regulator (12%), shore power (4%) and other causes. "Wire chafe is the biggest problem we see," adds Fort. "Electrical fires can also re-ignite even after an extinguisher has been emptied, so it's also important to have a main battery switch and/or AC breaker to stop the ignition source."
he #2 cause, "engine/transmission overheating," had 24% of the claims. Obstructed intake or exhaust cooling water passages are the main cause for hose or impeller meltdowns, which lead to overheating. Keeping these clear, especially exhaust manifolds and risers, as well as regular replacement of pump impellers, would have prevented most of these fires.
"Fuel leaks, " the #3 cause, came in with 8% of claims. Typical problem areas are fuel lines, fuel connections on the engine itself, and leaking tanks.
Having worked with a couple of A-4s, the only problem I found with them is that they are flathead (side-valve) designs and can't have a high compression ratio,, A gasoline engine's efficiency is directly connected to its compression ratio so this limits the efficiency of the engine.. Even that is not a big problem since all it means is that ya have to carry extra fuel. The other things like ignition and stuff can be fixed pretty easily.. They are good tough engines..
i am skipper--no license-- my real cpt is cpt dork e fuzzbutt, the ships cat-- is his formal name.. goes by bubba daboatkat, most of time-- and juan lu is a cpt in mexico with a need to re-up his license--and is helping me sail to maz..... is very knowledgeable. apprciate having him on board with me and gato.....he knows a lot about fishing and diesels and coast of mexico....
atomic 4 is great if ye get a good one--if not-- eeps...lol....i still prefer yanmar and perkins to any gas engine i have known in sailboats.
... but with the right-sized engine, transmission and prop, cruising speed wouldn't necessarily be a high-torque or difficult load, correct? (I'm asking, I don't know for sure)
Re fuel - yes gas does go bad faster, but it's also the more likely candidate for end-of-season siphoning and reuse in cars, tractors, etc.
Your other points about gas engines in boats are also valid, but can be mitigated by careful maintenance and winterizing. And who doesn't love fiddling with carbs?
The one good thing that I have heard about gas engines in sailboats is that they don't need as much warm up so that, if you need power in a hurry in a tight spot, you can just turn the igni...BOOM!
You will also have an alternator issue. You kawasiki will not come with a power take off to drive an alternator and the stock one on the crankshaft is not going to be putting out much in the way of amps.
Also how are you going to supply cooling air/water?
Also how are you going to supply cooling air/water?
Cooling water in this type of engine is pressurized anti/water mix not sea water. aluminum and salt water are a bad mix. also the pump is not a positive displacement one so you might have some issues there too. not to memtion weeds, and crud getting throught the strainer.
You would find it close to if not completely impossible to get the electric system components certified for and enclosed gasoline motor EVEN if it is much safer than and existing A4
You would never be able to use any of the ignition rated parts on land in a flammables handling room as the requirements are far greater
You would never be able to use any of the ignition rated parts on land in a flammables handling room as the requirements are far greater
This is the normal comment we see repeatedly. Here is the last paragraph of an article from 'Ask a Marine Surveyor':
http://www.cncphotoalbum.com/atomic4/basics/atomic4.htme
I can't say with certainty that it has never happened, I don't know for sure, but for those suggesting Atomic 4's explode I invite them to provide a single verifiable report of such an occurrence.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&gbv=2&q=C&C+35+gandalf&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=
It happened on the great lakes about two years ago to and A4 powered C&C 35 named gandalf
They ran out of fuel motoring home after a race and refilled at sea and it did in fact BOOM most likely due to a maintenance issue that allowed a good size fuel leak
Good thing was everbody got off safe
It happened on the great lakes about two years ago to and A4 powered C&C 35 named gandalf
They ran out of fuel motoring home after a race and refilled at sea and it did in fact BOOM most likely due to a maintenance issue that allowed a good size fuel leak
Good thing was everbody got off safe
Agreed, maintenance and care is everything. In your cited case it wouldn't have mattered if the engine were an Atomic 4, a Palmer P-60, a Volvo MB-10 or a modified motorcycle engine as pondered in the first post of this thread. I'm no less vigilant with my fuel/propulsion system than many others are with their propane systems or outboard fuel storage.
In researching my previous post I read of a diesel powered boat that burned due to fuel leaking onto the exhaust manifold. Does that incident make diesels unsafe? Not to me.
In researching my previous post I read of a diesel powered boat that burned due to fuel leaking onto the exhaust manifold. Does that incident make diesels unsafe? Not to me.
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small world...A friend of mine from Michigan, returning from the same race, was nearby and saw this.
No, I don't have any more details than already provided in this thread. Without more info, can we really say that "an A-4 exploded" as opposed to "something ignited gas fumes after a gas-powered yacht was refuelled at sea"? Big difference, in my opinion.
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