Keel Cable Issue
- Thread starter Drock360
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So I drilled out the old eyebolt, drilled the new hole (27/64") for the 1/2" eyebolt, and started tapping with new threads. I also wire brushed and coated with Loctite Extend rust stop. Sore neck from hunching under the boat, some bottom paint on the old hat and round 2 begins....
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Sooo no luck today, the new 1/2" tap was not doing a darn thing in the cast iron. It was the "strongest one" they had at the store, but even after heating the keel with a torch the tap still walked and actually got worn down (and i snapped the handle)....can I drill out the hole to a little over 1/2" and fill with epoxy then redrill and tap? Or will that not be strong enough as an anchor point for the new 1/2" eyebolt? Thanks again
A good welding and/or machine shop may be able to help, I plan on fixing my keel also and will be cutting out the eyebolt section and welding a steel eye into it.
best idea may be to raise the keel with a rope then lower it for the season.
I rarely raise mine when its in the water.
best idea may be to raise the keel with a rope then lower it for the season.
I rarely raise mine when its in the water.
As suggested, a good machine shop would be able to tap out that hole.
I am not sure about this but I'd make sure that the hole is correct sized.
Use small movements with partial turns, backing out to clear the threads. Use oil. If all else fails maybe oversize the hole and weld it in...I'd not use Epoxy for something this important structurally.
http://www.newmantools.com/tapdrill.htm
1/2" X 13 tap needs 27/64 drill. The drill and the tap on CD are Cobalt.
The wrench broke from holding it, and the threads on the tap started grinding down....I need to either look into a stronger cobalt tap or well the new eyebolt in
It does seem odd to me that the cast should prove so difficult to tap. I don't think heating the area would be much help, possibly even hinder the operation. Try threading the hole very gradually, backing out often to clear the tool and use lots of oil. It's probably a challenge tool start the tool straight while under the boat, but if you go slow it will find its way. If you're using enough torque to break the handle something is amiss. Good fortune to you. If this fails you still have options. I rehabbed my keel two years ago, it was by far the most involved project on our boat yet, but the peace of mind is worth it. By the way, check the pivot and mounting bolts if you haven't already. Again, good luck.
Clint
Clint
I"d agree with cwkemp. Whenever I've used a tap, I've found it necessary to back out after about every 1/8th of a turn or less. It takes a fair amount of downward pressure at first to get some threads started then once a good full turn is threaded less downward pressure. Short turns and back out, sometimes fully to check to see that the threads aren't clogging. Oil occasionally and make sure that the hole is deep enough to clear the tap. Just suggesting. Not saying that you've missed any of this.
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Yeah i think the original tap I used wasn't of great quality so hopefully the new cobalt one should do the trick....And i didn't drop the entire keel to, maybe i should to check out the pivot and mounting bolt. Im afraid to open up yet another can of worms haha
There has been pics posted of the pivot pin for the keel. It can either get worn in half OR the hole in the keel can get elongated. I think that the 4 bolts holding the keel are too few or too small but they seem to work. They recommend replacing them often. Also, check the turning ball for the keel cable that is up in the rubber hose under the winch. This ball can get flat spots in the groove for the cable and it can saw through the keel cable IF the boat has spent long times on the water rocking. So, some of this is real dependent on how much dock or mooring time that you boat has had.
The ball looks OK, the PO never put it in the water and I have had it docked for only one season so far. Who knows about the past....Whats the proper procedure for dropping the keel? Removing the bottom paint over the 4 screws, and when i back out the screws will the keel and all its 500+ pounds drop as well?
I'm in the middle of refinishing my keel and have been enjoying reading this thread. Be careful! If you don't support the keel when removing the mounting bolts then the full 550 lbs will come crashing down.
I agree with Bilbo, as long as you're under there, I would check the pivot pin and hole. I have seen really scary looking pins and pivot holes but I was extremely lucky. Even though mine were in great shape I decided to replace them with the newer wider brackets to eliminate the keel slop. I replaced the turning ball and cable as well because the PO simply swagged the end of the cable onto the keel eye bolt. Not a good idea.
When you decide to do a complete re-finish, be prepared for a LOT of work because you will find surprises when you remove the old finish. It's taken me over 4 weeks but I'm finally ready to re-install the keel.
I agree with Bilbo, as long as you're under there, I would check the pivot pin and hole. I have seen really scary looking pins and pivot holes but I was extremely lucky. Even though mine were in great shape I decided to replace them with the newer wider brackets to eliminate the keel slop. I replaced the turning ball and cable as well because the PO simply swagged the end of the cable onto the keel eye bolt. Not a good idea.
When you decide to do a complete re-finish, be prepared for a LOT of work because you will find surprises when you remove the old finish. It's taken me over 4 weeks but I'm finally ready to re-install the keel.
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If you have a typical C22 trailer, I believe there is enough clearance for you to put a floor jack under the keel, remove the mounting bolts, and lower the keel enough to get to the pivot hole. You only need to lower it about 4 inches to remove the castings. I could not do this because I don't have a typical trailer with enough clearance.
Greg
Greg
Please be very careful releasing the keel under there, it's all of 500 awkward pounds and then some. Plan each move and make sure someone is standing by, or at least in earshot. I've heard that there is extensive and detailed keel restoration info in the C22 handbook offered at Catalina Direct. Having gone through the process myself I would recomend much study and planning. The year we got our boat the bronze pin and hole in the cast were quite worn, but we got a season out of it and left the keel rehab for winter.
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With my trailer, the only way to fully remove the keel is to put the boat on supports and move the trailer away from the boat but......
You can also use the trailer to lower the keel. If you lower the tongue jack and then put substantial support under the stern of the boat, then when you raise the tongue jack again the stern will lift off the back of the trailer. This raises the keel area a few inches and gives you better access. I have 4 threaded rods 12" long that are the same thread as the keel bolts. With a not on each rod, I remove the keel bolts (One at a time) and replace with a threaded rod. Then, I can lower the pivot end of the keel slowly and safely. I have made supports that are similar to cwkwmp's pictures above and when I lower the keel, it is supported by blocks so that the keel can't flop over. It's heavy and weighs in at 550 lbs (Not 500lbs) The threaded rods are a good idea because after working on the keel, you can more easily locate the keel bolts back into their threads as the keel is lifted up again. (That can be a PITA if the bolts don't go back into the threads). Part of the issue with the pivot pin 1" in diameter is that the keel can flop around just a bit. When sailing in waves it may make a clunking sound as it shifts from left to right side. You may notice this some if the boat is on the trailer by how far the keel can rock side to side if it's hanging by the pin and the cable(When that's fixed). This can be eliminated with the hole in the keel being the correct size and the pin not being worn but also you may be able to add some shims to the sides of the keel so that when it's down, it rocks less.
All of this stuff seems like a big job but if you are going to be trailering the boat, it doesn't have to be done very often. Threading this eyebolt is really a one time job for example. CD suggests replacing the keel bolts rather often but that can be done one bolt at a time without dropping the keel. Part of the reason is a safety precaution. The suggested method of trailering is to lower the keel on the trailer BUT if the hull shifts when it's on the bunks, it can strain or break the keel bolts. Of course the prevention is to strap your boat down well to the bunks before moving it.
I keep my boat in the water for the summer and I have to replace the cable & turning ball every other year or every year depending on the summer conditions at the dock. Because of shallow water, I can't keep the keel full down all summer and this causes the cable and turning ball to wear faster.
When I first got my boat, it all looked good. I put it in the water right away for the last month of the season. But the turning ball had a flat spot and had almost sawn through the cable. I think that it was down to about three strands of wire left. That was dangerous. Also my wood bulkheads inside were rotten and loose because the upper chainplates leaked rainwater into the cabin. I've replaced them and sealed the leak where they come through the deck w/ silicone. This silicone sealant works well enough because the boat can flex just a bit at this point.
You can also use the trailer to lower the keel. If you lower the tongue jack and then put substantial support under the stern of the boat, then when you raise the tongue jack again the stern will lift off the back of the trailer. This raises the keel area a few inches and gives you better access. I have 4 threaded rods 12" long that are the same thread as the keel bolts. With a not on each rod, I remove the keel bolts (One at a time) and replace with a threaded rod. Then, I can lower the pivot end of the keel slowly and safely. I have made supports that are similar to cwkwmp's pictures above and when I lower the keel, it is supported by blocks so that the keel can't flop over. It's heavy and weighs in at 550 lbs (Not 500lbs) The threaded rods are a good idea because after working on the keel, you can more easily locate the keel bolts back into their threads as the keel is lifted up again. (That can be a PITA if the bolts don't go back into the threads). Part of the issue with the pivot pin 1" in diameter is that the keel can flop around just a bit. When sailing in waves it may make a clunking sound as it shifts from left to right side. You may notice this some if the boat is on the trailer by how far the keel can rock side to side if it's hanging by the pin and the cable(When that's fixed). This can be eliminated with the hole in the keel being the correct size and the pin not being worn but also you may be able to add some shims to the sides of the keel so that when it's down, it rocks less.
All of this stuff seems like a big job but if you are going to be trailering the boat, it doesn't have to be done very often. Threading this eyebolt is really a one time job for example. CD suggests replacing the keel bolts rather often but that can be done one bolt at a time without dropping the keel. Part of the reason is a safety precaution. The suggested method of trailering is to lower the keel on the trailer BUT if the hull shifts when it's on the bunks, it can strain or break the keel bolts. Of course the prevention is to strap your boat down well to the bunks before moving it.
I keep my boat in the water for the summer and I have to replace the cable & turning ball every other year or every year depending on the summer conditions at the dock. Because of shallow water, I can't keep the keel full down all summer and this causes the cable and turning ball to wear faster.
When I first got my boat, it all looked good. I put it in the water right away for the last month of the season. But the turning ball had a flat spot and had almost sawn through the cable. I think that it was down to about three strands of wire left. That was dangerous. Also my wood bulkheads inside were rotten and loose because the upper chainplates leaked rainwater into the cabin. I've replaced them and sealed the leak where they come through the deck w/ silicone. This silicone sealant works well enough because the boat can flex just a bit at this point.
A lot of info between the two of you, thanks. CWKEMP, seeing your keel makes me feel a little better at what I uncovered as i chipped away at the bottom paint/rust. I have not heard the clunking sound (not noticeably) anyway and there doesn't seem to be too much play in the keel so I think the drop and pivot replacement will be done after this season. My dilema is the boat is currently on stands which would make it much easier to drop the keel (Retrofitting a powerboat trailer is also a current project)
I keep the boat in the water all summer, in deep water so the keel is pretty much down all the time. The ball is in good shape, so as soon as I can get the eyebolt hole threaded and replaced i will epoxy it all up and apply some bottom paint (with hopes of a full keel restore for next season). That being said, I also have a rainwater leak which i thought i pinpointed from the stanchions. I removed them all and siliconed (which is now a yellowish color from the dirty water). Well i still have leaks, but the way the boat is sitting the water puddles right at both aft stanchions and can not drain out through the back like it is supposed to. So im hoping once the boat sits level that problem will be alleviated...otherwise its back to the drawing board removing all deck hardware and siliconing. Possibly another off season project which may include some fresh paint
I keep the boat in the water all summer, in deep water so the keel is pretty much down all the time. The ball is in good shape, so as soon as I can get the eyebolt hole threaded and replaced i will epoxy it all up and apply some bottom paint (with hopes of a full keel restore for next season). That being said, I also have a rainwater leak which i thought i pinpointed from the stanchions. I removed them all and siliconed (which is now a yellowish color from the dirty water). Well i still have leaks, but the way the boat is sitting the water puddles right at both aft stanchions and can not drain out through the back like it is supposed to. So im hoping once the boat sits level that problem will be alleviated...otherwise its back to the drawing board removing all deck hardware and siliconing. Possibly another off season project which may include some fresh paint
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