CQR resets
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A CQR, or any other 'plow' anchor is usually a BAD choice in SOFT bottoms. Especially with 'small flukes' such as the CQR resetting of such an anchor takes 'time' to 'sink down' into the muck before strain can be pulled; hence the CQR, to me, isnt a good performer in soft bottoms.
I perceive what is happening is that the heavy shank (and some chain) begins to bury long before the flukes penetrate the soft-gooey bottom and thus prevents the flukes from having the correct 'entry angle'; with the shank more deeply buried than the flukes when you pull strain you simply break the anchor out .... in an artificial shortscope due to the sunken shank.
I have for a long time used a large spade anchor, and have learned that in soft gooey bottoms one must let it settle down (sometimes upwards of 20 minutes!!) into the muck before pulling strain; something that cant be done in a large wind shift. For anchoring in extremely soft 'gelatenous' bottoms I carry an aluminum Fortress danforth type as a secondary anchor with variable adjustable 'fluke angles' - ~40 deg for 'mud' .... and use the 'large' fluke angle setting for soft gooey bottoms.
Some folks have been experimenting with adding lightweight super-strong cable (6-8ft. long) 'pendents' between the chain rode and the (modern plow type) anchor shank ... in order to help prevent the heavy chain weight from prematurely burying the anchor shank and leaving the flukes 'on top'.
I perceive what is happening is that the heavy shank (and some chain) begins to bury long before the flukes penetrate the soft-gooey bottom and thus prevents the flukes from having the correct 'entry angle'; with the shank more deeply buried than the flukes when you pull strain you simply break the anchor out .... in an artificial shortscope due to the sunken shank.
I have for a long time used a large spade anchor, and have learned that in soft gooey bottoms one must let it settle down (sometimes upwards of 20 minutes!!) into the muck before pulling strain; something that cant be done in a large wind shift. For anchoring in extremely soft 'gelatenous' bottoms I carry an aluminum Fortress danforth type as a secondary anchor with variable adjustable 'fluke angles' - ~40 deg for 'mud' .... and use the 'large' fluke angle setting for soft gooey bottoms.
Some folks have been experimenting with adding lightweight super-strong cable (6-8ft. long) 'pendents' between the chain rode and the (modern plow type) anchor shank ... in order to help prevent the heavy chain weight from prematurely burying the anchor shank and leaving the flukes 'on top'.
phillip--you need to use more than 30 ft of chain-- with longer chain you will drag less, as more weight is on bottom. 30 ft 3/8 is not enough for a 37 ft boat of any type.--i remember that we dragged almost every time we anchored on the barrier islands last year--- and one time in muddy river bottom.. this will stop with more chain. use 5/16 added to your 3/8 you already have-- you WILL need a windlass.
i have never dragged with my cqr with 100 ft of 5/16 chain and 496 ft rope rode, in either sand or muddy /weedy bottom.
here in ensenada i will use a 60 pound bruce with my 5/16 chain--i have 194 ft--i will add 10 ft 3/8 to the rode from anchor to windlass.
fair winds and smooth sailing!
i have never dragged with my cqr with 100 ft of 5/16 chain and 496 ft rope rode, in either sand or muddy /weedy bottom.
here in ensenada i will use a 60 pound bruce with my 5/16 chain--i have 194 ft--i will add 10 ft 3/8 to the rode from anchor to windlass.
fair winds and smooth sailing!
MS, Please Explain
MS, I was just reading up on the Rocna vs Mason's and there was something in there about the Manson being made up of multiple plates of steel layered that could lead to corrosion. That being said I find the slot on the shank on the Manson, where in theory the line would slide up to break it free interesting. Can you elaborate why you chose the Manson over Rocna? Inquiring minds want to know.
I actually own both but no longer feel good about recommending the Rocna due to their misleading business practices like the misinformation you read about the two plates "rusting" etc. etc.. Both are great anchors that have performed equally for me. I use the Rocna on this boat because it is a 15kg and my Manson Supreme is a 10kg. I trust my boat to either anchor.
Rocna has made many defamatory claims against the Manson Supreme, and just about every other manufacturer out there, which have not always proven to be true. The Manson also costs less despite being built in NZ where the cost of labor is higher than China where the Rocna's are now being made. If you can find a Rocna on sale go for it otherwise I'd go for the Manson Supreme.
I used to feel the Rocna was the better built, slightly stronger anchor but I now have strong doubts about that, but both are plenty strong for what you want them to do.
After years of defamatory claims against the Manson Supreme, Manson Anchors finally called Rocna to the carpet on it and challenged them to a dual in a certified test jig with video cameras and representatives from both companies on-site. Rocna has declined this challenge to prove their anchor is the stronger product and that speaks volumes to me..
I don't want to get into the full muck and mire of it all but I would be glad to give you more background off line.
P.S. I don't use the "slot".. With the swings we get up here it would only serve to un-set my anchor.
Typical night on the hook for us, no slot for me..
MS - Well Stated Thank You!
Thank you so very much. I had seen all of that and wondered.
Fortress in mud and kelp
I had the same experience as Bob during a squally period we were anchored in Factory Bay, Marco Island, Florida. The bottom in Factory Bay is soft mud and we dragged two times in an hour with a Fortress FX23 with mud flukes and a Danforth High Tensile 22H set 180 degrees off the bow with 7 to 1 scope. With respect to the horrified boats anchored around us and considerable embarrassment, I pulled the two anchors and set my plow at 7 to 1 and allowed it to sink into the muck before setting and tweaking it several times more before increasing the scope to 8 to 1. One hour later ,we got another 50 knot blast for about 5 minutes and the plow held steadily and my concerned neighbors were much relieved. Since that time, I have never used my Danforth or Fortress as a primary anchor but only as a secondary anchor for tidal anchorages or when a menacing sky dictates a second anchor. A good plow set properly, substantial chain and rode with adequate scope, depending upon the bottom characteristics, is practically bulletproof in all but the most extreme conditions. It is our experience that the plow is still the number one choice of most full-time cruisers we have met during our travels.
Claw review
Down here on the Texas Gulf Coast, we deal with sand and muck usually with the occasional oyster reef thrown in for good measure. I've been using a Claw with great results for the bottoms I anchor on. My Claw reset itself 180 degrees one night when a thunderstorm backed down over us. Instead of being in calm water behind a small island, we were on a lee shore in 60 mph winds and 4 foot seas. After a worried 10-15 minutes of watching the channel lights that I could see, I realized we were not dragging and went back to sleep. The next morning I had to use the genoa winch and drag the bow down 6 inches before the claw broke free of the bottom.
After that experience, I've never lost any sleep once I was sure that no one was dragging down on me.
Down here on the Texas Gulf Coast, we deal with sand and muck usually with the occasional oyster reef thrown in for good measure. I've been using a Claw with great results for the bottoms I anchor on. My Claw reset itself 180 degrees one night when a thunderstorm backed down over us. Instead of being in calm water behind a small island, we were on a lee shore in 60 mph winds and 4 foot seas. After a worried 10-15 minutes of watching the channel lights that I could see, I realized we were not dragging and went back to sleep. The next morning I had to use the genoa winch and drag the bow down 6 inches before the claw broke free of the bottom.
After that experience, I've never lost any sleep once I was sure that no one was dragging down on me.
Sounds like another "which anchor is best" dialogue. However, everyone has their success/failure stories. Much depends on the seabed and your rode and how it's deployed.
I use the Manson Supreme 35# as a primary using 100' of 5/16" backed to 200' of nylon. My secondary on the bow is a 35# Bruce with 35' of chain and more nylon. My usual anchoring is in the soft mud of the Chesapeake Bay. Neither system has ever failed me, however I spend much effort to locate a good anchorage too - protected from long open fetches, good water all around and a full 360 swing if we need it. Talk to others in your marina and see what their using for your area. For the long distance travellers, I suspect you already know what works best for you. Good sailing.
I use the Manson Supreme 35# as a primary using 100' of 5/16" backed to 200' of nylon. My secondary on the bow is a 35# Bruce with 35' of chain and more nylon. My usual anchoring is in the soft mud of the Chesapeake Bay. Neither system has ever failed me, however I spend much effort to locate a good anchorage too - protected from long open fetches, good water all around and a full 360 swing if we need it. Talk to others in your marina and see what their using for your area. For the long distance travellers, I suspect you already know what works best for you. Good sailing.
i really believe nne's problem Is not enough weight on the bottom, as his boAT DRAGS AT a very high rate of speed and has only 30 ft of chain --if he would use more--like add 100 ft of 5/16 to his present 30 ft of 3/8 o r change to all 5/16 for 100 ft ,, he may not drag as fast or as often. isnt the kind of anchor but teh rest of the tackle involved that keeps the anchor, whatever kind it is, on the ground, at the correct angle and IN the bottom.
i have never had problems with dragging with my ericson or with my formosa-- formosa is all chain rode--5/16, 194 ft--will be adding 10 ft of 3/8 for weight... the ericson has NEVER HAD BUT 100 FT OF 5/16. AND I NEVER DRAGGED IN ANYTHING IN SD--- was anchored IN 50 KT WINDS WITHOUT a problem.. i seriously believe in heavy weight to keep down the anchor and make it stay put. will drag as fast as the wind if not weighted properly.
is just my humble opinion-- but , in a good anchor thread, who listens!!!!! is important to consider the weight on the bottom as well as the "kind " of anchor used. ANY anchor will drag if not enough weight ........ go figger.....
i have never had problems with dragging with my ericson or with my formosa-- formosa is all chain rode--5/16, 194 ft--will be adding 10 ft of 3/8 for weight... the ericson has NEVER HAD BUT 100 FT OF 5/16. AND I NEVER DRAGGED IN ANYTHING IN SD--- was anchored IN 50 KT WINDS WITHOUT a problem.. i seriously believe in heavy weight to keep down the anchor and make it stay put. will drag as fast as the wind if not weighted properly.
is just my humble opinion-- but , in a good anchor thread, who listens!!!!! is important to consider the weight on the bottom as well as the "kind " of anchor used. ANY anchor will drag if not enough weight ........ go figger.....
Zee,
If the anchor has un-set from the bottom 30ft or 300ft of chain is still infinite scope to the anchor until it "bites" so it is up to the anchor to self re-set on infinite scope (chain & shank laying flat to the ocean floor)... Contrary to popular misconception the anchor is what holds you to the bottom, not the chain...
however, it is less likely to come UNset if has enough heavy scope to prvent that ation in the frirst plaCE--I HAVENEVER HAD A PROBLEM WITH A CQR UNSETTING WHEN I USE PROPER SCOPE. WITH ROPE RODE, AND ONLY A SHORT AMOUNT OF CHAIN, THER EIS MORE PROBABILITY FACTOR OF THE LINE GOING UNDER THE ANCHOR SHANK AND UPLIFITNG IT, s i believe nne's is doing. his drags dang fast and frequently when we sailed in his boat last yr--- iZee,
If the anchor has un-set from the bottom 30ft or 300ft of chain is still infinite scope to the anchor until it "bites" so it is up to the anchor to self re-set on infinite scope (chain & shank laying flat to the ocean floor)... Contrary to popular misconception the anchor is what holds you to the bottom, not the chain...
NEVER have that problem, as my rode is not able to lift up my anchor shank. i truly believe this is phillips problem, and he can fix it with 100 ft of 5/16 chain instead of only 30 ft of 3/8-- will also be easier on his hurt back to lift the 5/16, even with 100 ft-- i can do it easily, and i broke my back 3 yrs ago--i recommended last yr he gwt a longer chain and a windlass, but he ignored my advice, as he will this time, despite the fact i am an artist at anchoring. done it many yrs with no problem. mine do NOT drag. n9ot ever. not even in big big winds, which we often have in kali.... and we have sudden wind shifts in storm times-- often 180 degrees. the rode may not be the key, but is the ONLY difference between his boat dragging and mine (ericson) NOT dragging.....
Didn't intend on starting another anchor thread
I should have known, but didn't really intend on starting another anchor thread. Mostly I was interested in seeing how many of you put any belief in my idea that the hinge on the CQR allows it to be drug sideways, with the point not facing the direction of movement. And by the way, for those who commented, I do know how to anchor, and never, ever anchor with less than 7 to one scope, and usually go to 10 to 1. Most anchoring is in ten to 12 feet or water, and a soft bottom. 30' of 3/8 chain, whether enough or not, is all I can manage to get up physically. More chain is not an option, and I really don't believe it would help in a reset situation.
I should have known, but didn't really intend on starting another anchor thread. Mostly I was interested in seeing how many of you put any belief in my idea that the hinge on the CQR allows it to be drug sideways, with the point not facing the direction of movement. And by the way, for those who commented, I do know how to anchor, and never, ever anchor with less than 7 to one scope, and usually go to 10 to 1. Most anchoring is in ten to 12 feet or water, and a soft bottom. 30' of 3/8 chain, whether enough or not, is all I can manage to get up physically. More chain is not an option, and I really don't believe it would help in a reset situation.
phillip--i found that 100 ft of 5/16 is easier to lift by hand than is the 30 ft of 3/8 you have--i have done it with a bad break in my back, still active, and without... i have also found windlasses for little money0- they DO help-- if you wish, i could make a deal on an electric one thaat wi8ll do your job well... but you have to talk with me to find out about this.
BTW--BARTER WORKS SAME AS CASH.....
Anchor size / Mason vs. Roca
Mainsail - isn't 15kg a little small for your boat? I know you don't have a problem but Roca recommends only < 7 ton displacement for a boat your length I believe unless I'm reading this wrong. Roca also recommends a much heavier weight anchor for the same boat length / displacement - so I'm surprised they wouldn't take Mason Supreme up on the challenge with this added weight insurance...
You are 150% right on this and Zee has been very lucky. I know MANY, MANY, MANY very, very, very competent skippers at anchoring who have had a CQR fail them on a re-set some with 300' of chain. The CQR's inherent problem is the angle of the tip when laying on it's side on the bottom.
Look at the red set angles on these anchors then watch the videos:
CQR vs. Rocna Infinite Scope:
CQR 4:1 Scope:
CQR 2:1 Scope:
Neal,
Technically I am on the boarder, by Rocna's standards, of a 15kg and a 20kg and chose the 15kg because this anchor, and the Manson Supreme have tons more surface area than any equivalent 35 pound steel anchor except for perhaps a Danforth. Keep in mind that Rocna's sizing is extremely conservative and anchors are sized for upwards of 50 knots in soft bottoms with associated surge. Some other popular branded anchors are sized for 30 knots max..
The Spade S-80 (35 pounds) is rated to a similar holding power yet has 230 sq cm less holding surface area than the Rocna 15 (33 pound) and the Spade is also considered as "conservative" sizing... A 20kg would be hurricane anchor for our boat! If I drag this Rocna 15 I have more issues than a dragging anchor, I am probably in a Hurricane..
P.S. Lewmar is still recommending a CQR 35 for boats from 35 feet to 45 feet. This anchor only carries a Lloyds HHP certification or High Holding Power. The Manson Supreme 35 for example carries a Lloyds SHHP certification or SUPER HIGH HOLDING POWER. Based on the Lloyds SHHP standard the Manson could be cut in size by 1/3 and still equal or better the CQR so a 35 pound CQR and 25 pound Manson Supreme or Rocna are a lot closer in holding power than a 35 CQR and 35 Manson Supreme or Rocna.
This is what I find interesting about this site: the intellectual give and take with a common goal of understanding the problem at hand. I must, however, come to the defense of us hapless souls who are devoted to the ubiquitous CQR when properly deployed. Maine Sail's videos were outstanding, but I have one problem with the "science experiment"- namely, the tests were performed on land and to be a valid experiment should be performed in water because when the anchor flukes are dragged through the water, the water provides physical resistance (lateral and frontal) to the flukes allowing the anchor to pivot and dig in which is not possible on land. Also, any variable configurations of seabed, aquatic growth or current also serves to accelerate this "righting" process. I would be very interested in duplicating this experiment in real life conditions in an anchorage with the same identical control variables as used on shore. I believe us traditional sailors who still live in Pre-Cambrian evolutionary times and have found great success with our CQR's might possibly be vindicated. Good sailing, Ron
i think luck hs nothng to do with it--i make sure the anchor is set without relifting it out of the mud--i was well taught from youth to current time by experts--i have endured 90+ kt winds at anchor--is not LUCK is an art to anchoring. most folks do not know how. it does not matter what kind of anchor one uses as long as they know well how to use it and make sure the swing does not lift the anchor out of the muck is set into. LOL. have fun---i am GOOOD.
i know y0u anchor sales folk neeed to sell your wares, but i aint sold on that..i am fine with my good ones i have chosen for my boat. i sailed with nne last year, and i know pretty much what he needs to remain within his budget and abilities. he doesnt need a new anchor.
i know what i was taught and i know what the difference is between his style and mine and his equipment and mine. have a really good day-- some folks donot have 9 million dollars for the newest and most hyped anchor in life-- be easy on us--many of us use cqr in winds exceeding 50 kts on a regular basis without any problem whatsoever. most cruisers i have met use cqr with no problem. there is no reason under the sun why nne shouldnt be able to anchor with his and stay put. i know the problem he encounters-- we encountered it many times last year. thankyou.
i know y0u anchor sales folk neeed to sell your wares, but i aint sold on that..i am fine with my good ones i have chosen for my boat. i sailed with nne last year, and i know pretty much what he needs to remain within his budget and abilities. he doesnt need a new anchor.
i know what i was taught and i know what the difference is between his style and mine and his equipment and mine. have a really good day-- some folks donot have 9 million dollars for the newest and most hyped anchor in life-- be easy on us--many of us use cqr in winds exceeding 50 kts on a regular basis without any problem whatsoever. most cruisers i have met use cqr with no problem. there is no reason under the sun why nne shouldnt be able to anchor with his and stay put. i know the problem he encounters-- we encountered it many times last year. thankyou.
None of this matters in NNE's situation and only potentially would matter on an initial set. On a wind or tide swing break out the CQR will be at infinite scope just like in the video.
If you spend any time diving on anchors or if you have to opportunity to watch a CQR set under water, as I have, that is how they land the vast majority of the time. Keep in mind that the other anchors, a Spade, Bruce, Manson Supreme & Rocna all set in that scenario...
Here's an underwater pic of what CQR's very often look like. This is a CQR that is not well set and will likely break out on a wind / tide shift. I used CQR's for the better part of 18 years and still own two genuine CQR's. I do have an intimate understanding of how they perform & where they are lacking.
I guess Bernard Moitessier was just not an "expert" with a CQR...
Bernard Moitessier Quote:
"At sunset it blew from the south-east, the wind increasing. I am glad I had a the second anchor on deck, as I felt a premonition...... Suddenly my heavy CQR broke out from the sand. Immediately I dropped the second anchor that was on deck, and Joshua turned her nose to the wind once more.... Joshua dragged again, increasingly quickly. Soon she hit the beach and was turned broadside-on to the swell, seas breaking over her. My mind simply refused to comprehend the awful, horrible truth"
The "awful, horrible truth" was that Joshua was a wreck, despite being steel and too much for him to undertake a re-fit of, all of this thanks in part or whole to a CQR...
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