Crowd-Sourced Charts

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Sep 29, 2008
1,944
Catalina 310 #185 Quantico
In Cruising World there is an article about Navionics coming out with what they call User Generated Content (UGC) and about another site ActiveCaptain.com where users can also post updates for stuff they have found, but are not on the NOAA charts. In the article, they both claim that you can download these updates and use them as an additional layer to add local content.

Sounds like a great idea to me. Thoughts?
 
May 23, 2007
1,306
Catalina Capri 22 Albany, Oregon
As long as there's some kind of validation/vetting of the data I can see where it might be useful. I'd sure like to have something like that for our lake . . .
 
Nov 18, 2010
2,441
Catalina 310 Hingham, MA
I saw that article too

Seems like a good idea to me. I was thinking it could be useful for reviews of marinas and good anchorages.
 

JVB

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Jan 26, 2006
270
Schock Wavelength 24 Lake Murray, SC
Tom Tom GPS units for cars have a shared corrections feature. You can select from three levels (if I recall correctly) of verification. The middle level, which I use, is "accept corrections posted by multiple users". You give and get the corrections by connecting the GPS to a computer which has an Internet connection. This would be a great addition to navigation charts.
 
Sep 29, 2008
1,944
Catalina 310 #185 Quantico
The ID the source

As long as there's some kind of validation/vetting of the data I can see where it might be useful. I'd sure like to have something like that for our lake . . .
Navionics stated user provided changes would be added in a layer you could turn on and off. In active captain it looks like the additions are annotated with who provided it and how many validated the additions which gives them more credibility.
 
Jan 10, 2009
590
PDQ 32 Deale, MD
I've written a cruising guide and in the writing process, compared information on blogs, web sites, Active Captain, the US Coast Pilot, and visited every site that I describe in my guide. I have a few observations about guides and the information gathering process. They are general statements, and I don't mean to imply that they are true all of the time.

* Many guidebooks plagiarize other guides heavily. Certainly, facts are facts, but when they share wrong facts or equally out of date facts.... There is a profit motive, and verifying facts in the field is expensive.
* Most guide books lift at least some information directly from the US Coast Pilot. While the Coast Pilot updates information about ATNs frequently, other information is note reviewed for many years and can be laughably out of date.
* Most guides have significant marina information pulled from unconfirmed survey mailings. Little better than crowd information, really. I can't see listing a marina unless I have either stayed there or put feet-on-ground.
* All guide books--mine included--rely on a certain amount of user generated content. Even if we had the time to visit every bit of a guide's content every year--and no author can--there are still observations about shoals, obstructions, and businesses that one person misses and another sees. More than one set of eyes, and all of that. Of course, if the comment is significant--an important marina closed, ATNs discontinued on an inlet, a bridge no longer opens--then a phone call or visit is needed.

The scope of a guidebook is huge and many sources of information are used. Many things--whether a marina is a good place to stay--boil down to opinion and little more. However, there is one important difference between "crowd data" and a printed guide; the author of a printed guide must stand behind what he has said and suffer the backlash of readers and business owners if he is rash. Wiki-up information on the web does not have this cross check. That is the value of a bricks-and-mortar encyclopedia; the reader understands that while the information came from many sources, there is an editor tasked with the very serious job of ensuring quality information.

Would I use this sort of information, if in a separate layer? Yes, but I would consider it to be like dockside chatter... which can be very good! I would not use it if better verified information was available. Honestly, it smells like a short-cut way for navigation software companies to get content.
 
Jul 1, 2004
567
Hunter 40 St. Petersburg
Within the constraints

that catsailor outlines I think it's a good thing.

The guy who put together Active Captain had a post here recently in a thread about guides but Phil pulled it apparently because he felt it was a bit more promotion than info. It's his board so he gets to make the call, but, in a response he (the Active Captain guy) said they 'verify' the user input but never said exactly what that meant. I wasn't throwing stones, I just wanted to know more.

I note on the Active Captain website that the two chart programs they list in their store (MaxSea and Coastal Explorer) are Windows only. And $300+. Charts are extra. I'm an Apple guy with way cheaper Navionics apps and charts so that won't work for me offline, but still, having more info is usually a good thing.

Just don't take it as gospel.
 
Jul 1, 1998
3,062
Hunter Legend 35 Poulsbo/Semiahmoo WA
Don Douglass guide helped cause a sailboat to hit rock

A member of our club that travels to Alaska every year was using one of Douglass's cruising guides for the BC coast and Alaska area and told me about an incident that almost caused them to loose their boat.

The guide showed an "uncharted" rock on one side of the channel and they gave it a wide berth only to clobber it while going at cruising speed. WHAM!

After being hauled out and getting the damage repaired, they investigated further. As it turned out, the actual rock was on THE OTHER SIDE of the channel.

Seems that Don Douglass either made a mistake, or, and/or, might possibly be dyslexic.

Mistakes happen but this one was almost catastrophic. I never did find out where "the rock" was and since I cruise that area I don't want to find it the hard way, either.

The other thing to note is that he has used "help" in gathering some of his data and "crowd-sourcing", if you will, also for information. He does provide atta-boys in his guides for people that helped him with information but what info is his and what is hear-say - if that matters - is hard to tell.

Catsailer seems to have a good approach to his guide.
 
Sep 29, 2008
1,944
Catalina 310 #185 Quantico
Chart Thoughts

... I note on the Active Captain website that the two chart programs they list in their store (MaxSea and Coastal Explorer) are Windows only. And $300+. Charts are extra. ...
FWIW, I find the idea that Navionics is thinking about much more interesting. I use my dedicated chart plotter nearly all the time and am not interested in using a laptop or even an iPhone. If I can get that feature with just a simple chip upgrade I am in.

Hopefully, if they can include the source with the added features that gets interesting. Look at this forum for example; whose post would you trust more, Maine Sail's or someone elses?

Just trying to keep things simple.
 
Nov 20, 2010
25
Florida Bay Coaster 65 Key Largo, FL
ActiveCaptain background...

I'm "the guy who put together ActiveCaptain." We're just about to start our 5th year with it and currently reach about 100,000 boaters with the data.

I'm happy to answer questions that are coming up here. This is all obviously a topic that I'm interested in and have a lot of experience working with. I also have learned to be very careful on this forum - and I'm happy to do that. I completely realize and respect that this is a not a place to make commercial promotions. I'll do my best to keep the information factual and a little vanilla. Anyone is welcome to contact me off-thread for more specific information.

First, my wife and I run ActiveCaptain. I'm a software developer and wrote all of the software for the Flash user-interface on the web site, Windows Mobile & Palm chartplotting software, server back-end software, and server interfaces for third parties. My wife is an MBA in marketing and previously worked for Apple. Together, we've been building companies and products for 25 years - mostly in the medical world. We have 9 FDA approvals for medical products - hardware and software - and have had companies of ours acquired by some of the largest public companies in the medical device world.

After an acquisition in 1995, I started dabbling in chart software, new user-interfaces for boats, and the future of using a computer on a boat. I pitched an idea to Raymarine (Raytheon back then) who hired me as a consultant to provide advice on their next generation. I built a Windows 95 prototype and put together hardware and software designs for what I thought they should do - touchscreen. It was laughed at by some and loved by others within the company. For a variety of political reasons, the project couldn't get off the ground. Many of the ideas were incorporated by Garmin's touchscreen products - 8+ years later! I always wondered what would have happened if Raymarine had a little more guts and had fewer internal kingdoms threatened by the new ideas.

Believing that "touch" was the secret sauce missing in chartplotter user-interfaces, I pitched a simple chartplotter product on a Palm Pilot to Maptech. They loved it and sold it as Outdoor Navigator. I did 100% of the product development and owned the products (Palm, Windows Mobile touchscreen, and standard/non-touchscreen). We sold the product to 10,000 people - about 50% for boating and 50% for hiking/outdoor use. It supported all NOAA charts and USGS topo maps. It was nice to have another company selling a product of mine (my first experience with that) but it was terribly frustrating too. Maptech exploded and dissolved about 4 years later for good reasons although I had already pulled the product away from them since I owned it.

Outdoor Navigator taught me some very valuable lessons that weren't obvious - boaters wanted more than just charts and position for chartplotting. They wanted POI information - point of interest. Not waypoints - those are easy. What was missing were the things beyond the chart that are critical to planning. You had to be cruising to understand that. And few people at Maptech (or Raymarine) even owned a boat let alone used it.

By this time we were cruising for most of the year. We were using all of the normal chartplotter products and guidebooks and grew very frustrated by the tools available. Guidebooks seemed to be more about pushing the marinas who advertised and less about interesting anchorage information or honest information. Guidebooks were out of date the moment they were printed and the paper medium was all wrong for the features I felt were needed. At the same time, meeting other boaters and becoming part of the community made us realize how much information and experience was within each person who was actually out there and in their boat.

It all came to a head when we were heading south on the Chesapeake toward Norfolk and came upon a classic Chesapeake thunderstorm. We had planned to anchor at MM 0/Hospital Pt but decided that the new forecast was too rough. We called every marina in the guidebooks and they were all booked solid. One marina had the wrong phone number listed. So with thunder and lightening all around, we called stores in the neighborhood and found a shop nearby who knew the new phone number of the last marina. We called and got the last slip available.

Over dinner, Karen and I discussed all of this and it all came together based on that one event. Why was that phone number wrong? Our guidebook was brand new. We started realizing all of the other problems that the guides had and saw how the lessons learned about POI's work really well into providing a complete solution needed for cruising.

I had been speaking about handheld computers and cellular internet at TrawlerFests for a couple of years. At one lecture, Skipper Bob attended - another frequent speaker at TrawlerFest. I worshiped his guides, especially the anchorage one that also gave shoaling information on the ICW. We used them much more than any other guidebook in our real cruising use. We departed from TrawlerFest in the Fall and cruised the Winter in the Bahamas. While in Florida, I built a prototype of what Skipper Bob would be if he met the internet. The idea was to put his text information over maps and charts and have a way for people to contribute instantly with each other. It was crude but it worked. It was mid-December and we had decided to wait until after the new year to pitch it to Bob. Unfortunately, Bob passed away that Christmas and the discussion never happened. Instead, we released ActiveCaptain on January 26th, 2007 in pretty much the form I had created to show Bob.

The web site took off immediately. There were many things that have developed over the last 4 years but the following basics are fixed:

- Access to the data has to be free because there can be no barriers to getting user input and information.

- There are two types of data - factual and opinion. Both are important.

- Factual data has to be verified and validated. Opinion data shouldn't be touched although there has to be standards.

- The reader should have a way of judging the experience and reliability of the person leaving the opinion data.


Over multiple years as we were growing the web site and adding capabilities, I was also directly pitching the ideas to Navionics (as well as other major players). Sitting back and watching what has developed over the last few years has been quite enjoyable. I need to write a book some day! I'm quite pleased to see that Navionics released UGC in October. It's a wonderful validation about what we've been doing. I think they're missing some key elements that make the data have value though. Time will tell.

Since the very first user registered on our site, every detail/factual update they make goes through a back-end validation and verification process that are internal only. This back-end is very complex and provides us with a lot of tools to be able to verify information. Opinions are reviewed for being "family friendly" and are never touched otherwise. We get lawsuit threats about once a month about marina reviews - used to be once a week - but have never changed a single word in a review based on the threats. We've recently been writing articles in Marina Dock Age magazine about how marinas should work with the internet. A major article about dealing with negative reviews is in this month's issue.

Today we receive about 1,800 detail updates every day not including the opinion reviews. We maintain information about marinas, anchorages, local knowledge (bridges, inlets, locks, boat ramps, etc), and hazards. Marinas and anchorages have reviews - the opinion part. Hazards have comments from boaters who have been through the hazard and can give their own personal experience.

In addition to the people who access the data for free over the web site, we have API's for downloading and synchronizing the data offline for other third party products. Today products are shipping for the PC and iPhone/iPad along with a major initiative by Furuno to integrate the data into their devices. These shipping products are coming up on a year of availability with little to no changes to the synchronization facilities - they work fantastically well. A variety of new products are coming out soon including low cost PC, Mac, and Linux software, Android apps, and expansion of the iPhone/iPad apps. The data is in the hands of major chart producers who are evaluating the incorporation onto their chart data. I'm actually surprised to see the article in Cruising World. There is a more major piece coming in Yachting that should provide some screen shots of these upcoming products with ActiveCaptain support.

And ActiveCaptain isn't complete. I view that we're at the end of the beginning right now. I'm about to release a new "route" capability to the web site and synchronization software. It allows you to upload your routes from other chartplotters or the third party products supporting our data. On ActiveCaptain the routes can be archived, modified, and especially shared with others and downloaded. Routes can be created on the web site too for planning, distance measurement, etc. And of course, once you provide a route, we can use the POI data in really unique ways (where's the least expensive place to get fuel, what specials are occurring at marinas along the way, what bridges do you need lifted, what hazards are in your way, etc). All of that and a lot more is coming with routes.

I've gone on much longer than I should have. I hope this provides some background though. I tried to be bland and non-commercial. I sincerely apologize if I've crossed any line - I'm trying to be respectful. I'm happy to answer questions about any of this.
 
Jul 1, 2004
567
Hunter 40 St. Petersburg
Wow.

Thanks. Is it Don?

I guess I've never been as frustrated by guides as you and I'd certainly never go trucking by a mentioned but otherwise (NOAA) uncharted rock at cruise speed. But again, some info is better than none.

You mention "Today products are shipping for the PC and iPhone/iPad."

I've checked the Apple app store and your website and can't find any.
 
Nov 20, 2010
25
Florida Bay Coaster 65 Key Largo, FL
You mention "Today products are shipping for the PC and iPhone/iPad."

I've checked the Apple app store and your website and can't find any.
We mentioned it in newsletters, etc. We receive no income from licensing our data to these different companies so I feel comfortable mentioning specific names because there's no commercial interest. Currently, Navimatics Charts & Tides has direct, offline support for our data. They synchronize with our web site to get the very latest info when you have an internet connection but then display, search, and use the data all offline. There's a free update coming in a few days that adds the ability to enter updates and reviews from the iPhone/iPad too. I've been testing it and it's complete. It's waiting Apple approval.

More info about Navimatics Charts & Tide and some screen shots can be found here:
http://navimatics.com/nav4iphone.aspx

The product works on both the iPhone and iPad as a universal app. That means it provides full resolution on the iPad and purchasing a single license allows you to use it on both devices at the same time.
 
Sep 25, 2008
615
Morgan 415 Out Island Rogersville, AL
Re: ActiveCaptain background...

Kudos to you, AC. As a software developer (modeling and simulation) and yachtsman, I've followed the development cycle of AC with much interest. I look forward to the maturation of AC and further enjoyment from using it in the years to come. It would be awesome if I could do route planning with your software and be able to cheaply import waypoints into my Ray C80.
 
Jan 10, 2009
590
PDQ 32 Deale, MD
Guidebooks seemed to be more about pushing the marinas who advertised and less about interesting anchorage information or honest information. Guidebooks were out of date the moment they were printed and the paper medium was all wrong for the features I felt were needed. At the same time, meeting other boaters and becoming part of the community made us realize how much information and experience was within each person who was actually out there and in their boat.
No, I don't think you went on too long. Good information. Personally, I'm an old fart that likes paper, but your comments about most printed guides being out-of-date and advertiser-centric are dead on. Some of the most useful marinas in small towns are ignored, if they don't pay up.

If there is anything missing--and perhaps I only missed it--is that AC sometimes contains too much information with no summaries and no text describing the nature, history, and character of an area. For those that anchor-out, this may be the most important information, since many favorite places contain few or no marinas but have other charms. Other guides do a reasonably good job in this, since the information goes out-of-date far more slowly; perhaps it is something you could add over time. In my guide I have woven cruising stories between chapters of dry and factual material and I believe those stories are important to understanding an area and to enjoying the experience. Feeling the character of a place is the main difference between a cruising trip and a typical car trip taken at 65 mph.

Perhaps--probably--my view is atypical, since I cruise the places others don't and thus places that don't interest most guide editors; there's little money in backwaters.

Huge project.
 
Nov 20, 2010
25
Florida Bay Coaster 65 Key Largo, FL
Some of the most useful marinas in small towns are ignored, if they don't pay up.
Some of the most highly rated marinas are the ones who have never placed an ad anywhere. It's the places that really care about what they're doing and go the extra step to make it happen. The perfect example of this is Olverson's Marina off the Potomac River. It's not a fancy place. But when you go there, you're family. The docks aren't glamorous but they're well maintained. They have never had an ad in any magazine or any guidebook. They have 16 reviews and average 4 stars in ActiveCaptain, and again, this is not a fancy place. A direct link to the marker and reviews is:
http://activecaptain.com/X.php?lat=37.996526&lon=-76.541436&t=n&z=15

It's interesting to note that in these times when most marinas have a lot of empty space, Olverson's is over-booked. There's probably a lesson there.


If there is anything missing--and perhaps I only missed it--is that AC sometimes contains too much information with no summaries and no text describing the nature, history, and character of an area.
You're right. We've concentrated on the details and opinions. We're lacking in background information. I spoke directly about this at multiple boat shows and rendezvous' this past Fall - we're planning some innovative ways to get there. There's obviously Wikipedia but that's a little too general. Instead, we'd like to merge data with existing cruising book background information and articles. Right now when you zoom out of a chart in ActiveCaptain the markers go away at a certain point. It's at that point where I'd like to implement a new type of "destination marker" to give background, history, and suggestions about a geographic area. I'd much prefer to provide that information from authors and even figure out micropayment ways of making that "premium content" available to our users. These are new concepts but I think they make sense and the cruising population is ready for them.
 
Jan 10, 2009
590
PDQ 32 Deale, MD
You're right. We've concentrated on the details and opinions. We're lacking in background information. I spoke directly about this at multiple boat shows and rendezvous' this past Fall - we're planning some innovative ways to get there. There's obviously Wikipedia but that's a little too general. Instead, we'd like to merge data with existing cruising book background information and articles. Right now when you zoom out of a chart in ActiveCaptain the markers go away at a certain point. It's at that point where I'd like to implement a new type of "destination marker" to give background, history, and suggestions about a geographic area. I'd much prefer to provide that information from authors and even figure out micropayment ways of making that "premium content" available to our users. These are new concepts but I think they make sense and the cruising population is ready for them.
Yes, that is the sort of evolution I expect, and I expect to see you working on a means to make it real.
 
Jul 1, 1998
3,062
Hunter Legend 35 Poulsbo/Semiahmoo WA
Powerboaters are mostly different than Sailboaters

Generally speaking, I'd say that powerboaters are different from sailboaters when it comes to going places. Sailboaters like to say part of the enjoyment of boating is going there where as powerboaters tend to be more the "being there" types. But this is just my generalization. Then there is the 16-footer with a full-race V-8 and headers that just likes to fly around like a gnat.

Get in a group of powerboaters where someone is talking about where they've been and it generally comes down to the "name dropper" places. You know, the Roche Harbor, Empress in Victoria marina, Chatterbox Falls up Princes Louisa Inlet, and lets not forget "Desolation" Sound. This is just my gut feel and other opinions may vary.

Crowd sourcing inputs:
We're lacking in background information. I spoke directly about this at multiple boat shows and rendezvous' this past Fall - we're planning some innovative ways to get there. There's obviously Wikipedia but that's a little too general. Instead, we'd like to merge data with existing cruising book background information and articles. Right now when you zoom out of a chart in ActiveCaptain the markers go away at a certain point. It's at that point where I'd like to implement a new type of "destination marker" to give background, history, and suggestions about a geographic area. I'd much prefer to provide that information from authors and even figure out micropayment ways of making that "premium content" available to our users. These are new concepts but I think they make sense and the cruising population is ready for them.
I think a lot of web sites are working on how to do this. eBay has had changes in how they do theirs, Amazon has a fairly good system, wikipedia has another way of doing it, craigslist has a flagging system but spammers are still getting through pretty easy, Apple has a system in their Support section which provides feedback about commenters. Everybody is trying to find the best way to handle dealing with public input but while most of these are pretty good I haven't seen a system yet that can't be improved a bit.

The "doctor review" sections in find-a-doctor web sites tend to be pretty poor and this is a complicated issue because there can be liability with what people write.

For most of the cruising guides it's the "big" destination that seems to be the most important and they always seem to rave about them. Roche Harbor, however, is an utter zoo (my opinion). Wall-to-wall boats, people, wakes, and noise everywhere. As they say, to each his own.

Here is a crowd source input for you. A picture is worth a thousand words.
 

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Jul 1, 2004
567
Hunter 40 St. Petersburg
Again, thanks. But,

We mentioned it in newsletters, etc. We receive no income from licensing our data to these different companies so I feel comfortable mentioning specific names because there's no commercial interest. Currently, Navimatics Charts & Tides has direct, offline support for our data. They synchronize with our web site to get the very latest info when you have an internet connection but then display, search, and use the data all offline. There's a free update coming in a few days that adds the ability to enter updates and reviews from the iPhone/iPad too. I've been testing it and it's complete. It's waiting Apple approval.

More info about Navimatics Charts & Tide and some screen shots can be found here:
http://navimatics.com/nav4iphone.aspx

The product works on both the iPhone and iPad as a universal app. That means it provides full resolution on the iPad and purchasing a single license allows you to use it on both devices at the same time.
my point was that unless I already knew about Navimatics to search for it I wouldn't have known. You should at least link to it from your website otherwise people (like me) are left with the impression that AC only works offline with expensive Windows-only programs.

FWIW, the Navimatics thing looks good.
 
Jul 1, 1998
3,062
Hunter Legend 35 Poulsbo/Semiahmoo WA
Smithy - I've got a few questions

The first link shows satellite imagery with white boarders that seem to approximate property lines (at least they outline things like golf courses, parks, and the like). Question: what is the "crowd sourcing" on this? Is it the names and the white borders? or?

Editorial comment: when looking at Block Island I see only one boat at the main dock! Yet the trees look green so this must have been taken durning the spring.

Second link: looking at our area the map only shows two marinas and there have been four marinas for at least a couple decades. Granted, this is a "road map" and marinas aren't roads but these are fairly good-sized marinas. If using the map for driving purposes it would be handy to have the marinas shown for getting one's bearings purposes. On the other hand, a road that is near us is shown as a major arterial where as until just recently - last year? - it was just a collector road. So in this case they are really current. What is "crowd-sourced" on this map? Do crowds put the streets in? if not, how do they get shown?

Comment: my Ford Escape has a navigation package with a bunch of CDs that I haven't upgraded. It would be great to find a way to update them without paying their expensive rates.
 
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