How would you rig a bridal for a drogue on your stern that you wanted to use as an emergency steering aid? Has anyone done this?
Rigging Drogue Bridal Techniques
- Thread starter Prime Time
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I have 2-30 ft dock lines set up with the 2 eyes shackled together to the drogue rode. The dock lines run to my spin winches, starboard and port/ I plan to make up similar lines with eyes and thimbles to eliminate chafe at the shackle this winter. Winching the lines to one side or the other works to steer. I carry a Para-tech delta drogue to stream.
Fair Lead
How do you keep the line from chafing? Do you have blocks on the stern that the bridal runs through before coming to the winches?
How do you keep the line from chafing? Do you have blocks on the stern that the bridal runs through before coming to the winches?
You could use your spinnaker sheet blocks if they're mounted on a genoa track where you can set them all the way aft.
I just finished reading a book called "The Boats They Sailed In". It chronicled 9 classic (famous) ocean voyages in small boat starting with Joshua Slochum and ending in 1983. Instead of a focus on their adventures, the book focused on their boats. It detailed gear, rigging, performance etc. One of the disturbing themes that repeats in each voyage was the loss of their sea anchor to chafe during a big blow. As I've been thinking about a trip this summer off of the DelMarVa coast I'm considering placing U-bolts in my stern with an oak beam as the backing plate so I can secure a drogue or sea anchor with a very heavy snap hook. I think that if things really got bad enough that I needed a drogue or sea anchor I don't want to worry about it pulling out my genoa track... or the chafe that a block would provide.
Admittedly I'm speaking from zero experience using such a device in a gale. I have used a drogue before but only when I'm swimming and don't want the boat to drift to fast.
2 cents
Admittedly I'm speaking from zero experience using such a device in a gale. I have used a drogue before but only when I'm swimming and don't want the boat to drift to fast.
2 cents
Are you taking your V222 offshore?... Why don't you use the winches to carry the load guided through some blocks on the stern quarter. If you think you'll encounter weather strong enough to yank a drogue out of the cleats... what's too keep the same storm from yanking out the transom.
A drogue doesn't stop the boat, it is deployed aft to slow the vessel down. A sea anchor is deployed from the bow and its main purpose is to keep the boat relatively static, facing the wind and waves at an optimum angle of comfort and safety... similar to heaving to. Chafe control is part of every offshore sailor's ongoing chore. The key is vigilance, and plenty of anti chafe material.
A drogue doesn't stop the boat, it is deployed aft to slow the vessel down. A sea anchor is deployed from the bow and its main purpose is to keep the boat relatively static, facing the wind and waves at an optimum angle of comfort and safety... similar to heaving to. Chafe control is part of every offshore sailor's ongoing chore. The key is vigilance, and plenty of anti chafe material.
Re: Fair Lead
my winches are aft for the chute, I've got poly chafe guards to rig on the bridle when I set it up. You've got a good idea- I may investigate adding snatch blocks to my stern cleats to guide the drogue lines.
my winches are aft for the chute, I've got poly chafe guards to rig on the bridle when I set it up. You've got a good idea- I may investigate adding snatch blocks to my stern cleats to guide the drogue lines.
Great White
All U Get
I've carried two 100' lines in 5 gallon buckets to deploy them for practice steering. My problem is it never comes to mind when air fills the sail. Shame on me. However I never think a great white is going to bite off my transom either. I've read books that ASA and US Sailing have on their website about chafe and thought the same as you. If you're steering with a drogue I would think you would have to adjust the position of the bridle along the transom to maintain your heading. Hummm, plenty of variables.
I read Maine Sail's post on chafe and pendants and have been wondering why the chain we use on anchors for chafe can't be used on the other end? Some protection is needed and rust is always a concern, but in dire need it doesn't chafe that much. Hmmm, maybe this has been tried on drogues. Several variables, what do you think?
All U Get
Sorry. I know the difference between a drogue and a sea anchor... I was extrapolating the issue of chafe that I had just read about to this thread. I should have been more clear. No I'm not taking my V222 "off - shore" but I will be sailing along the shore line about a half mile or so off. I plan on bringing a drogue just to be safe but hope never to deploy it. And I have a short wave radio so I'll be checking weather reports regularly.
drogues or sea anchors
After over 50 years of professional sailing, including a circumnavigation & numerous Atlantic crossings, I have yet to encounter any situation where I thought it prudent to deploy either a sea anchor or drogue. I carried a drogue (a tire w/ chain wrapped around it w/ a bridle) on my circumnavigation, and have been in some pretty severe weather (hurricanes & gales).
Sea anchors are now considered an extreme hazard to one's rudder, though in the 60's & 70's they were the heavy weather item.
Personally, I have (so far) been most comfortable shortening sail, to bare poles if necessary, but allowing the vessel to move freely w/ the seas, rather than slowing her so much that the seas were overtaking me and boarding the vessel. Manual steering was necessary, for up to 22 hours in one case, but that's one's job when your vessel is in extreme weather.
I would highly recommend very cautious thought about deploying any drogue or sea anchor in the gulf stream.
And a word to the wise; do not run to avoid a hurricane (w/ or w/o a drogue) as running will take you into the storm, not out.
Best chafe gear I've ever found is carpet remnants.
After over 50 years of professional sailing, including a circumnavigation & numerous Atlantic crossings, I have yet to encounter any situation where I thought it prudent to deploy either a sea anchor or drogue. I carried a drogue (a tire w/ chain wrapped around it w/ a bridle) on my circumnavigation, and have been in some pretty severe weather (hurricanes & gales).
Sea anchors are now considered an extreme hazard to one's rudder, though in the 60's & 70's they were the heavy weather item.
Personally, I have (so far) been most comfortable shortening sail, to bare poles if necessary, but allowing the vessel to move freely w/ the seas, rather than slowing her so much that the seas were overtaking me and boarding the vessel. Manual steering was necessary, for up to 22 hours in one case, but that's one's job when your vessel is in extreme weather.
I would highly recommend very cautious thought about deploying any drogue or sea anchor in the gulf stream.
And a word to the wise; do not run to avoid a hurricane (w/ or w/o a drogue) as running will take you into the storm, not out.
Best chafe gear I've ever found is carpet remnants.
heavy weather tactics
The choices boil down to this:
Heave to, which cause the boat to slowly drift down wind (~1 knot) and creates a "slick" upwind that tends to disrupt breaking seas. Many fin keel boat are difficult to heave to though and you would need to determine how to accomplish this BEFORE you tried it for real.
Sea anchor deployed off the bow, which causes the boat to head into the wind and waves and is analogous to regular anchoring. The boat does drift backward and can sustain rudder damage though.
Trailing "rodes", basically anything you can grab and attach to a stout line and throw over the stern to slow the boat down as you run with the wind. Oil dropped in the water can assist in keeping the breaking waves from swamping the boat.
Series Drogue, which is a series of small drag producing (number varies with boat size) devices attached to a stout line at the stern that slows the boat as it runs with the wind. Generally conceived to be superior to trailing rodes as it develops a more consistent drag.
The first two clearly cannot be used to steer a boat. I'd not use the latter two to steer a boat either unless that was my only option. There are better make shift techniques like fashioning a rudder from hatch covers and oars etc. that provide steerage and don't have chafe or docking issues. Imaging trying to dock using a drogue!!!
None of these is useful near land. You need sufficient sea room (12 hours times drift rate would put you at least 12 NM downwind with the first two and substantially more with the latter) to execute these for any length of time at all.
I'd recommend designing a make shift rudder out of boat parts you are likely to have available AFTER whatever it is that you are concerned will take our your rudder does so.
For the record rudders don't fail often unless you hit something with them. Clearly if you ground the boat and break the rudder you are not going to be sailing much farther. Just kedge off and anchor. I suppose you could be unlucky enough for a whale to bite off your rudder but that is pretty unlikely. With all that said you should certainly carry a spare set of rudder cables and blocks etc to repair a broken one at sea.
The choices boil down to this:
Heave to, which cause the boat to slowly drift down wind (~1 knot) and creates a "slick" upwind that tends to disrupt breaking seas. Many fin keel boat are difficult to heave to though and you would need to determine how to accomplish this BEFORE you tried it for real.
Sea anchor deployed off the bow, which causes the boat to head into the wind and waves and is analogous to regular anchoring. The boat does drift backward and can sustain rudder damage though.
Trailing "rodes", basically anything you can grab and attach to a stout line and throw over the stern to slow the boat down as you run with the wind. Oil dropped in the water can assist in keeping the breaking waves from swamping the boat.
Series Drogue, which is a series of small drag producing (number varies with boat size) devices attached to a stout line at the stern that slows the boat as it runs with the wind. Generally conceived to be superior to trailing rodes as it develops a more consistent drag.
The first two clearly cannot be used to steer a boat. I'd not use the latter two to steer a boat either unless that was my only option. There are better make shift techniques like fashioning a rudder from hatch covers and oars etc. that provide steerage and don't have chafe or docking issues. Imaging trying to dock using a drogue!!!
None of these is useful near land. You need sufficient sea room (12 hours times drift rate would put you at least 12 NM downwind with the first two and substantially more with the latter) to execute these for any length of time at all.
I'd recommend designing a make shift rudder out of boat parts you are likely to have available AFTER whatever it is that you are concerned will take our your rudder does so.
For the record rudders don't fail often unless you hit something with them. Clearly if you ground the boat and break the rudder you are not going to be sailing much farther. Just kedge off and anchor. I suppose you could be unlucky enough for a whale to bite off your rudder but that is pretty unlikely. With all that said you should certainly carry a spare set of rudder cables and blocks etc to repair a broken one at sea.
Good Use of Drogue or Sea Anchor
Hello! Prime Time, You have gotten a lot of good advise form other sailors. Weight it all for your experience and the sea conditions at hand. No conditions can be resolved with the same set up or same device every time. Some times conditions call for a change of devises or technique being used. My suggestions are; purchase the book, "DDDB" (Drag Device Data Base) by Victor Shane. His book is loaded with case histories of the right and wrong uses of sea anchors and drogue devises and advise for proper rigging of those devises (Besides being a good read). I have found the Sea Anchor to be one of the most valuable items on any boat! Experience, is always the best teacher, if you don't kill yourself gaining it. With all that said,,, let's go sailing!
Tom W (AKA: hooyasailor)
Hello! Prime Time, You have gotten a lot of good advise form other sailors. Weight it all for your experience and the sea conditions at hand. No conditions can be resolved with the same set up or same device every time. Some times conditions call for a change of devises or technique being used. My suggestions are; purchase the book, "DDDB" (Drag Device Data Base) by Victor Shane. His book is loaded with case histories of the right and wrong uses of sea anchors and drogue devises and advise for proper rigging of those devises (Besides being a good read). I have found the Sea Anchor to be one of the most valuable items on any boat! Experience, is always the best teacher, if you don't kill yourself gaining it. With all that said,,, let's go sailing!
Tom W (AKA: hooyasailor)
Clarification
I appreciate all the input and recommended reading.
The reason for my original post is that I am preparing my boat for the Marion to Bermuda Race in June of 2011. An ISAF requirement is the ability to steer the boat with the loss of the rudder. Apparently, the loss of a rudder is unusual but not a rare event. The are many posts and stories regarding failure of rudder posts due to mechanical fatigue and collisions with things.
I have a delta drogue that is slightly undersized for my boat that I would drag from a bridle. It would be adjusted to keep the boat heading in the desired direction with a balanced sail plan. Cruising World this month has an article on a vessel that lost its rudder and has a diagram of a drogue arrangement. I've considered snatch blocks on the toe rail, but the loads involved are very high.
I've considered building an emergency rudder and a cassette that I could mount on my transom. However, imagine trying to mount something like that in 20 ft seas and 50 knot winds. You would have to have some pretty big hardware on the transom in advance.
I have a gale rider that I would tow in a survival storm. I chose it over a jordan series drogue based on cost and the low likely hood of being in a survival storm from MA to Bermuda and back. It is designed to handle 12,000 lbs of load. Not many snatch blocks can handle that loading. I could use my spinnaker leads on a track on my toe rail, and bring it to my winches, but again, it is a huge load issue considering the angle of the line would be from 90 to approaching 180 degrees depending on where seems to give the most fair lead.
I appreciate all the input and recommended reading.
The reason for my original post is that I am preparing my boat for the Marion to Bermuda Race in June of 2011. An ISAF requirement is the ability to steer the boat with the loss of the rudder. Apparently, the loss of a rudder is unusual but not a rare event. The are many posts and stories regarding failure of rudder posts due to mechanical fatigue and collisions with things.
I have a delta drogue that is slightly undersized for my boat that I would drag from a bridle. It would be adjusted to keep the boat heading in the desired direction with a balanced sail plan. Cruising World this month has an article on a vessel that lost its rudder and has a diagram of a drogue arrangement. I've considered snatch blocks on the toe rail, but the loads involved are very high.
I've considered building an emergency rudder and a cassette that I could mount on my transom. However, imagine trying to mount something like that in 20 ft seas and 50 knot winds. You would have to have some pretty big hardware on the transom in advance.
I have a gale rider that I would tow in a survival storm. I chose it over a jordan series drogue based on cost and the low likely hood of being in a survival storm from MA to Bermuda and back. It is designed to handle 12,000 lbs of load. Not many snatch blocks can handle that loading. I could use my spinnaker leads on a track on my toe rail, and bring it to my winches, but again, it is a huge load issue considering the angle of the line would be from 90 to approaching 180 degrees depending on where seems to give the most fair lead.
Prime Time, I think you don't want a drogue if the purpose is steering, you want to trail something with just enough drag to be able "pull" the boat from side to side to steer, like maybe 50 ft of chain with some konts tied in it.
I'm Sure You Have Considered it, but...
...a friend tried that after losing his rudder and it was a big problem. He wound up making a rudder out of flooring and a spinnaker pole, and he had a full complement of tools, power and other. There may be a reason you are not considering the SOS, but just in case: http://www.selfsteer.com/products/sos/index.php
...a friend tried that after losing his rudder and it was a big problem. He wound up making a rudder out of flooring and a spinnaker pole, and he had a full complement of tools, power and other. There may be a reason you are not considering the SOS, but just in case: http://www.selfsteer.com/products/sos/index.php
I have carried a gale rider around the world twice, on two different boats, never had it in the water. Been hove too more times than I can remember which is a God Send to park and rest or wait for the wind to moderate. Downwind, speed is stability, I do NOT want to slow down. As for ability to steer without a rudder, most of the time you can balance the rig, you do not want to slow down, you want to keep a heading. Pacific Plus makes a great windvane that has its own rudder. I had one on an HR 42 and really like it. If you are just going to Bermuda, carry a canvas bucket you can tow to help steer and forget about it.
Mike
Mike
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