Sailing while on Anchor

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Sep 26, 2010
45
Hunter 410 Cheboygan Michigan
I've got a 2000 410 which has a fractional rig. ( No backstay) It sails quite a bit while on anchor and has the tendency to demand more from the anchor while "sailing" than boats not rigged this way. I'm looking for ideas on reducing or eliminating this issue. I'm thinking of designing a tri sail to mount on the aft of the boom with a halyard from the top connected to the end of the boom. I'd like some suggestions on other ideas. Thanks
 

Mulf

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Dec 2, 2003
400
Hunter 410 Chester, MD (Kent Island)
May 5, 2004
181
Hunter 386 Little River, SC
My 386 sails at anchor like most Hunters, and I dislike it intensly. I do not mind the motion, per se, but it always feels as if the anchor is being worked loose bit by bit each time the boat completes an arc, creating what I call Anchor Creep. Experience has taught me a few things.....

1. The boat actually has 2 distinct motions while sailing at anchor : There is the arc it describes as the boat "sails" from one side to the other. In heavy winds, this arc can approach 90 degrees, and more. Then, within that arc, the boat also yaws from side to side. To clarify the yaw I am describing, picture a rigid pole attached to the boat at the bow, and continuing down to the sea bottom. The bow of the boat could not move with this arrangement, but the stern could swing from side to side. This side to side movement within the larger arc created by "sailing' at anchor comprises the 2 seperate motions.

2. If you are able to snorkle over your anchor and watch the underwater part of your ground tackle you will find that with 50 feet of chain attached to a nylon rode, the boat is not even pulling on the anchor until the wind hits approx 12 to15 MPH. The strain is borne by the chain. In other words, the first 15 MPH is free, as far as the anchor itself is concerned.

3. In my opinion, a riding sail does not reduce the sailing arc or the yaw, but only serves to slow the process down. A decent result in it's own right. There may actually be some elimination of the swing, but not enough to make a whole lot of difference.

4. Still working on this theory, so don't beat me up !! Just as we have apparant wind, I think we can have apparant boat length. Normally the anchor roller extends forward of the waterline of the hull by, in some instances, 3 feet. By dropping a second anchor over the bow so it is just submerged, but not on the bottom, I believe we have created an apparant boat length that is, in this example, 3 feet longer than the actual boat length. Or, more accurately the LWL. Since the boat sails at anchor due to more windage farther forward ( at least, one of the reasons), by creating a longer apparant boat length, the windage is moved aft.

5. if it is the actual motion of the boat that you do not like rather than any concern about Anchor Creep, dropping a second anchor over the bow with enough rode to allow it to drag on the bottom, but not enough to let it hook up, really slows and eliminates the "sailing at anchor" motion quite a bit.

6. A riding sail that is adequate to slow your motion in 15 MPH winds is too big in 20 to 25 MPH and above.

I have never tried dropping a weight / anchor over the stern and dragging it on the bottom because of the proximity to the rudder and prop, but feel that this might be a good way to slow the motion as well.

All of this is based on the fact that I do not mind the motion that sailing at anchor creates, rather, my overrideing concern is for the viability of the anchor set. The Anchor Creep that can be created in winds above normal is something to be avoided.

Jeff
 

Benny

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Sep 27, 2008
1,149
Hunter 320 Tampa, FL
The best solution that we found was to upgrade the ground tackle. In our case we went to a 35# CQR with 40' of heavier chain. This anchor has not eliminated the tendency of the boat to sail but has provided the added performance from the anchor that the boat was demanding. The anchor's ability to quickly reset is a desirable feature. We also find the with the heavier and longer chain leader we can use less scope in tight anchorages. There are a couple of anchor sails in the market but I have not yet heard of one that effectively eliminates the problem.
 
Sep 4, 2007
6
Hunter 41 New Orleans
I have a 2005 Hunter 41 that, while at anchor would swing 90 degrees. I purchased a riding sail from Banner Marine. Banner said it would cut the swing by 20 degrees and it did, from 90 to 70.
 
May 16, 2007
1,509
Boatless ! 26 Ottawa, Ontario
I have a much smaller boat and it only has a center board so I think I probably swing more than the rest of you !
I have gone to 75 ft of chain rode with a bridle so I can offset the bow, that helps a bit. Also have a riding sail I made out of an old jib that I have not tried yet. I intend to run it up the topping lift and swing the boom to one side to try and force the boat in one direction. My last hope is a 10 lb mushroom anchor off the stern (I can lift up my motor and rudder so no concerns there for me).

The plot below on the GPS is after a night anchored out in the north end of Lake Worth with a 35 to 40 kt south wind, we got a slip the next morning :D.

Bob
 

Attachments

May 5, 2004
181
Hunter 386 Little River, SC
Bob:

We were anchored in Lake Worth for 2 weeks waiting for a weather window to the Bahamas. Had the GPS on the whole time, and we sailed 9 miles while at anchor during that two weeks.
 
Dec 2, 2003
1,637
Hunter 376 Warsash, England --
Hi guys,
As a penance for my sins I moderate the 'Technical Questions' page of the Legend Owners web site here in the UK. Hunters are sold as Legends over here.
The question of sailing whilst on an anchor crops up quite regularly.
FWIW here is my most recent posting:-

Re:Steady Anchoring or Too Much Movement
Reply #2 on: Mon 30/Aug/2010 20:12 GMT »

Most boats do this. It is often called 'Sailing on Anchor'.
When the bow pays off a little so that the wind bears against the side of the hull it drives the boat off to one side. She sails out like a kite until she reaches the end of her tether when the anchor rode pulls her head through the wind again and off she goes on the opposite tack. It can become quite violent as I discovered in Helford River one day when Autumn Legend suddenly began this after lying quietly for an hour or so. We had gone below and very nearly tee boned another moored boat. Fortunately we did not touch but on the next cycle it looked awesome.
Legends may be a little more prone to this because of the mast being further forward than other designs with large genoas - but most boats are so afflicted, particularly with the additional windage of a rolled foresail.
One night in Havelet Bay Guernsey on my previous boat I stopped this happening by letting down a second kedge anchor over the bow so that it just dragged on the bottom and this was enough to stop her sailing about. I made no attempt to 'set' it and just used the drag it provided. I guess any lump will do so long as it is heavy enough to oppose the initial drift, or at least slow it down so she does not sheer about. Overnight it made no attempt to tangle with the main anchor rode.
Of course one needs to adjust it so it drags on the bottom at all states of tide.


Alternatively many have tried setting an 'Anchor Sail'. It is like a small jib but hanked onto the backstay or topping lift, hauled up on a halyard and then pulled forward along the boom. It is intended to act as a flight on an arrow They report that it works but one would need to watch for a change of wind or tide direction.
Last Edit: Mon 30/Aug/2010 20:16 GMT by Don Alexander - Autumn Legend »
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Alan

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Jun 2, 2004
4,174
Hunter 35.5 LI, NY
Aside from the high freeboard furled headsails and the large section mast of furling mains increases this propensity. To make the anchor sail as effective as possible it should be hoisted as far aft as possible. As noted by Jeff, there comes a point where too much anchor sail becomes a detriment.
I have found the best cure is a small FX-11 Fortress anchor almost eliminates this issue. By setting it on the extreme end of one of the 'tacks' it can be adjusted to almost completely eliminate the problem.
 
May 16, 2007
1,509
Boatless ! 26 Ottawa, Ontario
Alan, sounds like a good idea, where do you ties it off on the boat ? I tried two anchors set 45* apart, both tied to the bow and it helped some, seems the all chain rode and bridle does about the same thing. If it is off a stern cleat then should stop it completely.
Bob
 

jtm

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Jun 14, 2004
314
Hunter 28.5 Dataw Island, SC
Has anyone tried one of those riding sails that , which from an above profile , look like a "Y" with the bottom of the Y aimed towards the mast. Seems to me that the biforcated aft delta (wing) half of the sail would load alot sooner than a simple triangle riding sail, thereby "minimizing" the momentum and tendency to arc widely.
 
May 5, 2004
181
Hunter 386 Little River, SC
Alan:

Can you expand on setting your small Fortress ? You noted "at the extreme end of one of the tacks". Do you Set the anchor, just drag it, or ........ Where do you cleat it to the boat ?

I have dropped my spare anchor over the bow to drag (not set) on the bottom, which has helped, but have never thought about setting near the extreme of the swing.
Thanks..... jeff
 

Alan

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Jun 2, 2004
4,174
Hunter 35.5 LI, NY
When the boat reaches the far end of its tack I drop the FX over the leeward side of the bow. Then allow the boat to swing the opposite way with the line slack. When it reaches the other extreme I start to take up the slack. On the next cycle I control the rate of movement with the FX line keeping the bow slightly to that side of DDW of the main anchor line. This setup only allows minimal swing without putting any real load on the FX. You can adjust the FX line till the boat settles into its position.
 
May 28, 2009
764
Hunter 376 Pensacola, FL
Of course, there's this point of view as well: (copied from a thread on cruisersforum.com)

Loads on your anchoring gear when anchored by the stern are a tiny fraction of that while anchored bow to the wind. The reason is because when a sloop anchored by the bow, she sheers from side to side ( tacks). Everytime she tacks, the full momentum of the boat is stopped by the anchor. When sheering broadside to the wind the winds load is the total windage of the hull, stopped suddenly by the anchoring gear. Anyone who doesn't realise this is has never tried it. With the boat tacking around her anchor the chafe on the gear is exponentially greater. Slapping under the stern takes getting used to, about 20 minutes. Sterns that can't take a wave have no business f leaving the harbour.

Whenever I have to leave a boat foir any length of time I prefer a stern anchor . It gives me peace of mind , knowing the only load on my anchor is the tiny amount of windage a boat presents from the transom. She lies there like a dead duck.
 
May 5, 2004
181
Hunter 386 Little River, SC
I am not sure this deserves a dismissal. Not that Robert was doing such. However, we rarely see boats anchored by the stern, and, as Roberts post pointed out, there are some positive attributes.

The Hunters with the sugar scoop stern may not make the best candidates when conditions include waves and wind, rather than just wind, but, what would other drawbacks be ?

Water over the stern (or in the aft lockers)
Wave slap
Hull stress due to wave slap ?
Potential damage to bimini and dodger ?
Harder to get in / out of dinghy with anchor rode in the way
Dodger / Bimini combo creates more wind drag, thus more load on anchor

Benefits:
No sailing at anchor
Increased air flow below through companionway hatch

Any other thoughts ??

Jeff
 
May 28, 2009
764
Hunter 376 Pensacola, FL
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I brought it up because I was intrigued by some information I read on Don Jordon's site. He was the inventor of the Jordon Series Dogue and apparantly a big believer in anchoring by the stern. The relevant info is here:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]http://www.jordanseriesdrogue.com/D_14.htm[/FONT]

Here's and excerpt:
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Have you ever tried anchoring from the stem? I anchored the other weekend for an experiment in 20 to 30 knots out in the open. The difference between how our Seraph 25D behaves stem to as opposed to bow to was utterly amazing. Sure we had wave slap and some spray into the cockpit, but she just sat there and pointed into the wind with every shift. By the bow she dances around like a drunken ballerina, sailing off one way, snatching up on the anchor line, turns, and off she goes the other way. The anchor sail on the backstay helped but she still wasn't nearly as composed as when her stem was facing the waves. Mr. Jordan will tell you why this works. And more importantly maybe, why sailing vessels USED to be able to get away with bow anchoring and why modem sloops just can't ;without sailing all over the place." [/FONT]
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
Personally, I've never tried it, but I have to say I am intrigued.
 
May 5, 2004
181
Hunter 386 Little River, SC
Robert, and all:

The website you quoted certainly is packed with information...... particularly on anchoring stern to. He makes a number of interesting, and I assume technically accurate points. His contention that anchoring by the stern in a hurricane may be the safest way to go certainly makes you sit up and take notice.

Too late in the season for me now, but will definitely be giving this a try next spring.

Jeff
 
Aug 9, 2005
825
Hunter 260 Sarasota,FL
How about setting a small weighted drogue off the bow with 10-20' of line? It's not rigged long enough to interfere with the ground tackle or drag the bottom and might slow the bow from racing off to either side long enough for the stern to get back in line.

I've carried one for years and never used it offshore. I'd be miffed it solves this issue(to any extent) but laid in the hold unused for years. I'll give it a go on our next night out.
 
Jun 2, 2004
5,802
Hunter 37-cutter, '79 41 23' 30"N 82 33' 20"W--------Huron, OH
OK, lets say we all decide to try anchoring from the stern. Now how do we actually do that? I have two hundred feet of rode in the bow with a windlass and a CQR35. Do I set the anchor from the bow first? Then I drag fifty feet of slack to the stern and connect it to a bridle? Might be possible in really benign conditions.
 
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