Replaceing Catalina 22 traveler with midships traveler

[jbrosecity]

I searched Catalina Direct and other sources and am puzzled I cannot find a system to convert the OEM stern rail mounted traveler on a Catalina 22, with with either a cabin mount or one located just behind the hatch way entry. I also have an O'Day 23 which has a traveler mounted just behind the entry way to the cabin. This is infinitely superior to a stern mounted traveler IMHO. Although it is slightly inconvenient stepping over it to descend into the cabin, it is far more user-friendly when sailing. For one thing the stern mount on my 2007 Cat 22 blocks me from lifting the tiller to duck underneath it when changing sides during a tack or gybe. Thus I have to get out around the end of the tiller to switch and this renders more than 50% of the cockpit unuseable for guests. If I thought I could not change this i would get rid of my Catalina tomorrow and buy something else. This is a horrible design in my opinion. Not to mention the tendency to get smacked in the head with the main sheets if you are seated too far aft when the boom swings across. Also it is awkward to release the cam cleat on the traveler behind me when facing forward watrching where I am sailing, as opposed to the forward placement where the the cam cleat is in front of me. And of course the physics of a traveler dictates that a direct pull down form under the boom flattens the sail much better than an angled pull from the stern. I really can't believe anyone sails a boat this way?!?! Does anyone know of a traveler that would mount on top of the cabin with stands that would match the bevel of the Catalina 22 MKII cabin? Or perhaps better yet one that mounts on the step in front of the entry way or even spams the benches just aft of the cabin like on my O'Day? I don't think the traveler on my O'Day is OEM so I'm sure kits are available. Hoping for some help here. thanks in advance/

 

[Stu Jackson]

C22 traveler

If you don't like it that's no reason to hate the boat, fix it. Garhauer has travelers for larger boats, and might be able to work something out for you. A curved traveler is a no-no, because it changes the shape of the mainsail. Just because Catalina Direct doesn't have it, doesn't mean you can't find one, you could try Harken, too.

While I haven't recently heard of modifying a C22 traveler, I know it's been done (we had our 1981 C22 for a few years in the early 80s), and I know for sure folks have done traveler mods on C25s for both in cockpit and top of house arrangements. We had our C25 from 87 to 98.

For both boats, I never felt the need to do so, and didn't share your concerns.

Try the C22 Association website (www.catalina22.com or .org) and the C25 group at http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=3

You'll have to modify the end boom mainsheet connection, as you know, usually done with bails on the boom through bolted.

Good luck.

 

[sinnettc]

You might look at the cockpit mounted traveler for a Capri 22. It's a bit of a shin biter but I don't see why it wouldn't work on a C22 as well if the bolts were properly backed underneath.

 

[Ray Bowles]

When I first started sailing my C22 I also questioned the traveller as the span it covered was quite small. After a couple of years of hard sailing I found that with proper use of the boom vang the traveller was fine.
The San Juan 23 I currently sail has an approximete 40 inch traveller mounted right in front of the companionway step down. I have found little benefit over the C22 . It is a great garbage collector for any type of debris that piles up between the traveller and the cabin bulkhead.
In your case the traveller should be placed anywhere you want it if that complements your type of sailing and the guests you choose to have onboard.
The C22 is one of the best boats ever in that size and price range. The sheer number sold confirms that statement.
If the placement of the controls disturbs your enjoyment of this boat then by all means change brands.
Ray

 

[jbrosecity]

well thanks for the input... but I definitely had to get ride of that rear traveler before I sailed the boat again. After sailing so much with a midships traveler just aft of the companionway entry on my beloved O'Day 23, I absolutely couldn't stand the rear traveler on the Cat 22. And not being able to lift the tiller to duck under it when tacking or gybing was a huge drawback. Likewise getting smacked in the face with the mainsheet. I would never sail the boat again with that setup. I spent all afternoon today on a modification.
First I removed the traveler track and fittings from the stern rail. I cut off the stern sail cross bar near the uprights with a tubing cutter and slipped a cap over the ends. Then I cut up a piece of 3/4" starboard purchased from west marine to fit on the useless little step in fron the companionway. I made it 5" wide. Then I drilled holes thru the starboard and the step to thru-bolt it thru the step. I mounted the stern track, fairleads and cam cleats to the starboard and bolted the whole setup to the step using ample amounts of lifecaulk. I mounted a stainless bail to the boom directly above the relocated traveler and voila... a mid ships traveler which now frees up the entire cockpit and allows me to lift the tiller when tacking and gybing as i am accustomed to doing. As it happens the step is about the exact same width as the horizontal crosspiece in the stern rail so no track modifications were necessary. It isn't ideal in terms of travel, any more than the stern mount, but it certainly makes sailing a whole lot more pleasant.

 

[OldCat]

Modify the Tiller?

For one thing the stern mount on my 2007 Cat 22 blocks me from lifting the tiller to duck underneath it when changing sides during a tack or gybe. Thus I have to get out around the end of the tiller to switch and this renders more than 50% of the cockpit unuseable for guests.

One option that I am considering for the tiller is to revise the mounting and move the tiller pivot point forward of the traveler. This seems to be a minimal modification that would, at least, solve the tiller part of the problem.

Just a thought,
OC

 

[jbrosecity]

well I guess if you can move the tiller pivot forward and be able to lift the tiller that would solve half the problem anyway. But there is still that nasty mainsheet, especially when running with the wind when the main is way out... this great increases the length of the main sheet and therefore makes it worse as far as smacking you across the face or chest when coming about or gybing. It nailed me once pretty good on our shakedown cruise with this new boat and it also nailed my wife... after that we learned not sit in the rea half of the cockpit anymore... what a total waste. The cockpit is not that big on the MkII and while you can get by with just two people in the cockpit, that is just silly. It may be less of an issue on the longer cockpit Capri.

On my O'day 23 with about the same size cockpit as the MKII, we routinely seat 4. I like to take the helm seated way back in the aft corner of the cockpit with my other hand on the mainsheet coming back from the center of the companionway. No way you can do that with the rear traveler setup on the Cat22 without a lot of movement when preparing to tack or gybe... and god forbid you get distracted for a moment and do it accidentally, especially the gybe... you are in for a nasty wakeup call then. No, to me eliminating the rear traveler and going to one just aft of the companionway is the way to go... abd by the way the completed job looks really OEM. And if you really want fully effective traveler performance, much better than stock, then you can get a longer track and mount it atop the benches the full width of the cockpit the way it is on my O'Day 23. Frankly we are just rec sailors and not into racing at all, so maximizing performance is not of much interest... just ease and and comfort of sailing along with safety. I did consider briefly just leaving the rear traveler in place and mounting a single eyebolt center the in the small step in front of the companionway and eliminating the traveler altogether. But then it is indeed harder to get in and out of the cabin under sail.. much easier with the traveler all the way to leeward... plus on a run allowing the traveler to slide all the way to leeward increases the ability to let the sail out further without the mainsheet riding against the cabin bulkhead. All things considered though, if I had realized how tough it was going to be to do the stair mount traveler setup, I probably would have tried the fixed point for the mainsheet first. I get to try my masterpiece today!

I'd rather be _/)......_/)......._/)......._/)
PRAY FOR WIND!

 

[Barry B.]

jbrosecity,


Can you post pictures of your modifications? Some C22 sailors also use a mid-cockpit barney post to place the mainsheet control in front of them, but they still use the original traveler.

 

[OldCat]

What do you do when you gybe?

But there is still that nasty mainsheet, especially when running with the wind when the main is way out... this great increases the length of the main sheet and therefore makes it worse as far as smacking you across the face or chest when coming about or gybing...

I'd rather be _/)......_/)......._/)......._/)
PRAY FOR WIND!

I hate to ask - but how do you sheet when you gybe? I was taught to sheet in before gybing, then let the sheet out after, and as soon as, it fills on the new tack. If you just let her fly across, then there is more risk of taking out the rig or, as you noted, getting smacked by the sheets. By sheeting in as I slowly turn downwind, I can do a very controlled gybe on the C22 without drama.

I do agree that the rear mainsheet is not ideal - but the more that I use it - the easier it is to work with.

OC

 

[jbrosecity]

I took a few photos today and will take some more tomorrow. Today was my first sail with the new setup and I can state unequivocally that it totally transformed the sailing experience for me. I am relieved because I absolutely hated sailing it with the stern mount traveler for reasons already stated. And yes I always sheet way in when I gybe but nonetheless if you are sitting in the wrong spot you are gonna get nailed when the boom swings across. No more though! Now I can sail comfortably as I like to... inboard hand on the tiller and outboard hand on the mainsheet while comfortably nestled in the back corner of the cockpit, and when I tack or gybe, I just lift the tiller and duck across to the other side... lovely... and there's plenty of room in the cockpit for four other people if one of them is taking responsibility for the jib sheets.

I am 6'6" tall and weigh 265 pounds so on a light boat like the Cat22, I definitely want to be on the windward side after all turns and lifting the tiller to duck under it is definitely the best way to do it for me. Even on my O'Day 23 which I keep on a lake in Texas, and which has another 500 pounds in its shoal keel and is thus a more stable boat than the Cat 22, I still like to be on the windward side when I come about or gybe and thus have gotten very used to the midships traveler setup. It was a huge relief for me to sail my new Cat 22 today after this modification. The only cost was the piece of starboard from West Marine and some time.
I will try to post some photos soon

 

[jbrosecity]

I created a quick webpage with a few photos of the traveler for anyone who is interested. It will also soon be indexed by google and will serve as a reference for others who might also find the rear mount traveler unplkeasant to work with. The photos are here:

http://www.TheAnneMarie.com/traveler.html

 

[philwsailz]

Interesting.

I should point out that while you say: "It isn't ideal in terms of travel, any more than the stern mount..." it actually is improved.

Take a look at the effect of moving the traveller forward from a geometric perspective. Consider that in the stock location your boom will be able to swing maybe 5 degrees, if kept directly over the traveller. Your new location, closer to the pivot point at the mast has at least doubled the arc that the boom can swing in while remaining directly over the traveller. You now have control in your new location that is equivalent to a much longer stern-rail-mounted traveller.

You also have remedied another issue I have with the stock location, specifically the loading along the mainsheet imparts a rotational moment on the stock car which prevents both sets of traveller car wheels/rollers from engaging with uniform pressure. On our boat, I had already removed the track and re-mounted it in a forward-rotated mounting so that the car's bail sticks straight out from the car up to the sheet, and not at an angle. This greatly smoothed the car's ability to be moved up or down while hard-sheeted....

The one issue I am concerned with in your arrangement is the change in loading forces on the boom. No doubt the end-boom sheeting has worked well for all of us catalina owners froma strength standpoint. I will be curious to watch and learn from you if you have introduced issues with the sail changing shape, possibly from the boom bending upwards at points outside and aft of your new mid-boom bail location. I have my intuition and gut-feeling that the C22 boom is substantial enough for this not to happen, but I will be curious to hear back from you after some time with the boat in its new modified rigging... Keep us posted!

 

[milwaukeerobert]

I'm curious, on a deep broad reach or a run does the coach house get in the way of the main sheet. I have a SouthCoast 22 and have been messing around with the main sheet controls. Thanks for the pictures.

 

[jbrosecity]

Hi gents... thanks for comments... Paul very interesting about increasing the arc by moving the the traveler connection forward... I will add that to my web page as yet another enhancement of this design. Likewise the equal pressure on the rollers. Had never even thought about that! I was just so thrilled to be able to lift the tiller now and avoid getting smacked in the head with the main sheets that I overlooked some other points, I think. Interesting question about the stiffness of the boom. I will watch for this under heavy load on a close reach... I can sight down the end of the boom and see if any bow is introduced. I used a bail through bolted to the boom directly above the new traveler location, just exactly as I have seen on other boats including my O'Day 23. The bail was 10 bucks from West Marine. That, $20 worth of starboard and a couple eye small stainless eye straps for a couple bucks each, plus some assorted stainless bolts from Lowe's, were my only costs I am very very pleased with the results... the only change I plan to make is to add some sort of extension to how the block attached to the traveler car, thus raising it up a bit to make it easier to release the cam cleat with a downward tug. This will not affect access to the cabin at all, nor will it affect traveler function, except perhaps to increase the angle necessary before the main sheets make contact with the cabin bulkheads. This answers milwaukeerobert's question... yes, as let the main out further and further the main sheets begin to side over the top of the cabin bulkheads to some degree, but this is inconsequential if you have smooth rounded corners where the bulkhead meets the top deck as on my Cat22. I am used to a certain amount of this on my O'Day 23 and it has never posed any problem. You could reduce it to some degree perhaps, by attaching the bail to the boom a bit further aft, but at some point almost any midships traveler not mounted on top of the cabin is going to make some contact with the bulkhead. Again, it is not a problem as far as I am concerned, certainly minuscule compared to the problems I experienced with the rear mount traveler.

 

[OldCat]

One more consideration

Perhaps one more consideration - by moving the traveller forward, you have increased load on both the traveller and the mainsheet - and your effort to sheet in. A higher purchase on the blocks might be in order as well. Perhaps a 6:1 main and maybe a 4:1 traveller will do the trick.

In heavier winds, this is more of an issue.

Always ways to make the Admiral go shopping for new clothes when you own a B.O.A.T.

OC

 

[jbrosecity]

heheh... thanks oldcat... we were in some pretty stiff winds yesterday with a partially furled heeld about as far over as I dare and I had no trouble trimming the main. I'm pretty stout tho so I will keep it in mind as the aging process sets in

 

[philwsailz]

the only change I plan to make is to add some sort of extension to how the block attached to the traveler car, thus raising it up a bit to make it easier to release the cam cleat with a downward tug.

Could you reverse your rig so that the block with the cam cleat is up on the boom bail? You could also take a look at the block so that the cam cleat could be flipped so that you could release with an upward tug.....

It might just be as easy as a pennant also... attach a pennant between the traveller car and the block....

 

[philwsailz]

I have also considered swiping a mid-boom traveller system from a Capri 22 and mounting it over the sliding hatch on the pop-top. The hold down dogs work well, nobody has any business sailing with a pop-top up, it would elevate the block to an easier "pull-down" sheet release, and the line would not drape over the cabin top on a run...

 

[CaptDon01]

I like your set-up! Having a MK-II myself, you got me thinking.....I think this arrangement might work better with a bimini also. Could you post some pictures of the stern pulpit also?

Thanks,

Don

 

[jbrosecity]

I will be out at the boat tomorrow and will take some photos of the stern after cutting out the cross member with a tubing cutter. But basically the cross member was cut out leaving just 3/4 or so stub and a 3/4 white pvc cap fits nicely over it after taking a couple wraps with electrical tape to make it tight. It suddently looks very clean at the transom! I did consider a cabin mount traveler but the ones I saw were extremely expensive and anyhow I am very tall and it would be nasty getting in and out of the companionway unless you mounted it all the way forward of the opening which in my opinion would be too far forward. I might take a look at reversing the blocks though having mainsheet running across the cabin from the boom down would be hazardous to passengers I think. I think a simple extension to lift up the lower block will do it. I was going to take a look at hardware options at West Marine... I was thinking for example that a turnbuckle would do it nicely. And although the adjustability of the turnbuckle wouldn't serve much use, it would look pretty much OEM