Am I just expecting too much from used boats?

[themadscientist]

I've never bought one and thus have no frame of reference for what is seen elsewhere in the world but good lord man! This cannot be what passes for sell able condition. Case in point, a listing from a local Japanese used boat site. I'm over there ya know.

http://www.island-boat.com/yacht/321_la.html

Lines just piled about and looking like they are 20-years old seems very common over here, nothing shocking. how do people sail with a rats-nest of rope all over the deck and aren't they at all concerned about loading line in that condition?

I don't think they do as almost every boat looks like it has just sat for years.

Absolutely no attempt to tidy up inside is also reasonably common in the listings I have seen. It would take less than an hour to clean out all the junk piled up in the cabin, not even actually clean it, just empty it out; why wouldn't you do so?

Having the interior all torn apart is not so common but enough that when I see it I am no longer shocked. I can't understand exactly how the wood can get so bad INSIDE! Are they scrubbing it with a holystone or giving it periodic salt rubs like a ham? :cry:

I have seen some crusty hulls, but this one appears to actually be molting! Is that several layers of paint, or the durned gelcoat flaking off?

I'm new to this boating thing but I am a pretty greasy (car version of salty?) and I would not take a vehicle in this condition if you offered to pay me to take it. To my novice eye, this craft looks like the best thing it could do for you is be an insurance fraud tool when it mysteriously sinks via a hole in the hull suspiciously in the shape of a 12lb sledgehammer head.

This one, to me, seems like what one would reasonably expect from a used boat.
http://www.island-boat.com/yacht/1080_la.html

It needs a good wash polish and wax and there is gear in it, but it is stowed in some manner, the term "strewn" does not immediately come to mind. The lines are old but somewhat organized and overall it looks like a couple of weekends of work to get her cleaned up, re-rigged and down the ramp.

This is the sort of boat I will be looking for when the time comes to invest in something large; conditionwise. Am I on the right track with my expectations?

 

[Joe]

I'm not sure what your beef is... the second boat is a full blown racer... you can tell by the dearth of controls and equipment... note the sails. The first one is in bad shape but has also been extensively raced... again look past the clutter and take note of the racing syle equipment...

The deal is... raced boats, after a number of campaigns, will get beat up and need to be restored and refit... the old owners have had their fun.. and simply want to get rid of them and let the new owners do all the refitting.. Since I don't read or understand japanese I couldn't figure out the price.. but if the hull, spars and hardware are in good condition.. then all else will be replaced. The race bottom can be rebuilt.. since someone purchasing this boat will have the resources. The interior is not that important to a racer.. as long as the crew has a place to crash and the galley is functional...

So... my advice to you is to peruse cruising boat sales sites and you'll find what you're looking for. Don't be pissed because someone's offering a dirty boat... they're just selling it as is.. you shouldn't take it personal... if you like the boat, base your offer on what it will cost you to fix it up... otherwise, quit whining and keep looking.

 

[themadscientist]

I'm not pissed, just shocked that people allow something as potentially dangerous as a boat get to that condition and the frequency with which I see them in this state. Do you see boats in this condition frequently stateside?
I love the look of that second one. Stripped down to the essentials is very attractive to me. When I have the license and the means to step up to a real boat I don't intend to use it to entertain, I mean to get out as much as possible and sail so a roomy cabin with basic amenities is the ticket.
I still prefer the Yams though, the 26 foot late models especially.

 

[sinnettc]

Depends on where you look and how much you're willing to spend. Take a look at fleabay or craigslist and you'll see a lot of "TLC needed" and some nice boats. Look on SailingTexas and you'll see more well cared for boats than junkers.

I happened to luck out on both of the boats I've bought. The 2004 Capri 16.5 was a 4 year old boat donated to a charity and we got a terrific deal on it ($2k less than it was worth). It was so new that it would have taken a lot to mess it up, though someone did leave it in a lake with no bottom paint long enough to permanently tea stain the bottom.:cry: The red/white/blue jib also had sun fading as they didn't use a cover. :cussing:

Our second boat we found by word of mouth. Made the mistake of mentioning to an acquaintance whose boat we were on that we (eventually) wanted something larger than the 16.5. Next thing I knew the Admiral was asking me if i was going to do something about the boat he'd told us was about to come on the market. We paid a fair market price for the 2001 Capri 22 we have now, which was raced for 6 or 7 years. Mike took pretty good care of it so I haven't had a huge amount of work to do, though there was some core damage under the aft rail from a leak he couldn't reach/find with his bad back. Frankly, the cabin tends to be more cluttered from us using it as a cruiser than when he raced it. I've got cushions, bedding, anchors, lifejackets for 5 adults and 6 grandkids, etc. All he had was neatly rolled sails and racing paraphernalia.

The bottom line is, shop around and if you can, walk the marinas to see if there's a gem out there.

 

[Stu Jackson]

just shocked that people allow something as potentially dangerous as a boat get to that condition

The more dangerous part were the previous owners.

C'mon, ever look at used homes?

 

[themadscientist]

Oh yeah.
One of the reasons I sucked it up and bought a new house. I paid a heck of a lot more on the front end but I have the exact house I wanted with a factory maintenance team on call! :zzz:

The sins of the previous owner was always the biggest concern with used cars, and I have gone through over 30 of them. Walking home is a fair bit less lethal than swimming, though, so I am hyper concerned with a shoddy boat. Mad don't swim so good; more like controlled drowning. :dance:

 

[BobM]

It is easier to find a boat in good condition if that is your goal, rather than to find a Yamaha 26 made from 198X-199Y, in my experience. If you do the later you will be looking at a handful of that boat on the market driven by a variety of factors (the economy, the number of hulls made, etc...) and that handful of boats will be in a distribution of conditions. I was looking for an S2 9.2A and there were essentially three on the market at the time within a few hundred miles and I bought the best of the three...the other two were not worth buying due to price and/or condition...and still had some work to do. Good luck.

 

[RECESS]

There are plenty of barnacles states side. Some people just let them go. If I am in the market to buy a boat. I like the people that do nothing to try and make it look good. I spend no time or effort looking. It is the people that let a boat go and then try and put lipstick on a pig to sell it that concern me. They would mislead a person and possibly put a newbie in a dangerous situation to make a sale.

 

[higgs]

It looks to me as if that second boat has nothing supporting weight of the keel which means that the hull is doing the job. Very bad.

 

[Ross]

Learn to look past the cosmetics. House, car or boat dirty and cluttered will always detract from the apparent value. Make your looking profitable by seeing through the clutter and making an offer based on the appearance. If I were to take a new house and scatter dirty clothes and dirty dishes through out the rooms, leave shaving residue in the bathroom sink, spilled food on the stove and a cat's litter box way past needing to be changed, I couldn't get 50 cents on the dollar for the place. However a cleaning crew of three people could make the place perfect in one day for 500 dollars.

 

[HukilauMike]

Are you expecting too much? I don't think so, but it seems to me that when many owners decide to sell their boats, they lose all interest in maintaining it. When looking for my present boat, I saw some boats that amazed me. One boat had about a foot of water in the cabin (it was on the hard, so I knew the boat had a significant deck leaking problem); one boat looked great above and below decks, but smelled like a combination of piss and garbage below (the broker couldn't even get that owner to call him back); and one looked like it had been outside and open to the elements for years (that owner basically just asked me to make an offer, any offer).

So yes, we have plenty of crappy used boats for sale in the USA too. Like houses, a well-cared for and maintained boat is likely to sell quickly, which means that there are fewer of them on the market at any one time. No bargains to be had. One tactic for finding these boats that I stumbled across is to walk around a marina and complement someone on their boat and mention that you are in the market. While most owners will tell you their boat is not for sale, there are many owners who have the possibility in the back of their minds. You might get lucky. At least you will learn about more different kinds of boats. Good luck.

 

[kenn]

I'm not pissed, just shocked that people allow something as potentially dangerous as a boat get to that condition and the frequency with which I see them in this state. Do you see boats in this condition frequently stateside?

The first boat is clearly a beater, an as-is proposition, and the seller is clearly revealing the boat's defects, judging from the number of pictures detailing the sorry state of the boat. I couldn't see a price, either, but it would clearly be pretty cheap.

So what u see is what u get... if you see crap, you can expect crap. Maybe what you find shocking is that people let boats get that bad. It happens...

There are beautifully-maintained creampuffs available too on the used market.

 

[Ross]

I was doing some work at the local auto auction prep shop and from one compact car the technician removed two 40 gallon trash cans full of junk, paper ,old clothes, food containers, a few flashlights. I have heard the joke about the ashtray is full so I need a new car but this was rediculous.

 

[Tim R.]

You have to respect that first listing though. Most folks try to hide defects. I think he will be likely to sell that boat quickly to someone who is willing to do the work. So many brokers and real estate agents only show the good stuff and try to conseal or explain the bad. I recently had a broker tell me that moisture in a cored hull is no big deal. He also said that a lightening strike on a carbon fiber mast is OK.

I just sold my boat. The first 2 lookers both wanted to make offers. I refused to allow a bidding war so the first guy got the boat. I sold it for a premium in today's market without a broker.

My house is currently for sale. It has been on the market for 2 weeks and we have already had 6 showings with an average of 760 hits per week on the listing.

Messy boats indicate an overall lack of maintenance which you will discover long after the purchase is complete. Some of us take care of our stuff and have no trouble selling it when needed. Most do not. Mainly because lots of sailors are cheap and if they do not have the skills and pride of ownership they likely will not pay someone else to do the work. The vast majority of folks here do not fall into this category.

BTW, anyone interested in a beautiful home in southern Maine give me a call

 

[Old Skool Neil]

Learn to look past the cosmetics. House, car or boat dirty and cluttered will always detract from the apparent value. Make your looking profitable by seeing through the clutter and making an offer based on the appearance.

In agreement with this approach and depending on the skills, tools and time you have, I see an eyesore as an opportunity. In my opinion, as long as the hull, deck, engine and spars are sound the rest is manageable. Someone who lets their boat go isn't expecting to get much for it and therein lies the opportunity.

In my case, the P.O. had let things go on his Catalina 30. As I said, the hull, deck, spars, sails and engine were decent but little else. His asking price was $15K, my offer was $5K. He took it, thankful to have a willing buyer.

The next two years I went through it system by system, usually replacing rather than repairing. I've probably spent another $5K but I don't think I could find one in her current condition for the total I have in her ($10K). And now I know the boat thoroughly, no surprises. Before and after main salon pics attached, more 'after' pics in my profile area.

 

[Bob S]

higgs,

I noticed the same thing and both boats were cradled without supporting the keel. Wonder if that's common there?

 

[Tim R.]

Someone who lets their boat go isn't expecting to get much for it and therein lies the opportunity.

Agreed. Except that many sellers list their boats for unreasonable prices and they sit on the market for years and degrade while sitting. Then the owner cannot understand why he cannot get even half his asking price. My father in law is a prime example. He eventually gave his boat away. He also thinks $850(his boatyard price) is an outrageous price to buff and wax his 39 footer. I told him I would do it for $1,500 and he just laughed.

Oh yeah, he is a lawyer and expects people to pay him hundreds of dollars an hour while sitting on the can thinking about their case.

 

[themadscientist]

In agreement with this approach and depending on the skills, tools and time you have, I see an eyesore as an opportunity. In my opinion, as long as the hull, deck, engine and spars are sound the rest is manageable. Someone who lets their boat go isn't expecting to get much for it and therein lies the opportunity.

In my case, the P.O. had let things go on his Catalina 30. As I said, the hull, deck, spars, sails and engine were decent but little else. His asking price was $15K, my offer was $5K. He took it, thankful to have a willing buyer.

The next two years I went through it system by system, usually replacing rather than repairing. I've probably spent another $5K but I don't think I could find one in her current condition for the total I have in her ($10K). And now I know the boat thoroughly, no surprises. Before and after main salon pics attached, more 'after' pics in my profile area.

Really great work there. They look like two different boats!
I would actually not mind rebuilding the interior as I have my own ideas of how it should be and I am a pretty good carpenter. It begs the question, though, if the easy to maintain stuff is not, what did they neglect where it's not easy to maintain?
I agree with your target points, hull, deck, spars, sails, and engine.


You like the 4 chunks'o wood support system too? I noticed that as well and was similarly concerned. I do frequently see half-hearted attempts at hull support in racks here. The dinghy I am trying to get has bunk dents in the hull lengthwise. I am willing to overlook it as it's a starter and otherwise looks real solid.

 

[Old Skool Neil]

Regarding a project boat, your minimum requirements (sound hull, deck, etc.) should not change with price. You've got to know when to walk. Beyond that, enjoy the hunt.

When shopping for my boat I looked at some steaming piles. Even if they'd given them away for free I wouldn't have been interested, didn't meet my minimums.

One boat in particular sticks out in my mind, an Islander 30. The interior reeked, the cabin sole squished when stepped on (saturated with diesel) and the owner tried to paint the deck with what looked like pink house paint. He'd knocked over the bucket and pink paint ran down the stbd hull side, didn't bother to clean it up and there it dried. The boat was side tied to the dock, on the port side of course so the spillage wouldn't be readily apparent. Unbelievable!