H356 Mast Rake Questions

[shemandr]

How do other 356 owners, or others with the B&R rig, set up their masts in regard to rake and prebend? I
I have Selden Roller Furling for the jib (And main) on my 356. I have used a plumb bob with the topping lift and determined that the rake of my mast is aft-ward 8 to 10 inches. There is also pre bend of around 3 inches at mid/lower mast.
Since I think my boat has too much weather helm I am considering changing the rake to no rake and possibly removing the prebend which I hope will make my main furling easier.
To decrease rake you need to shorted the forestay. OK so far.
I've looked at the Selden manual, and the furler itself. Am I correct in my conclusion that you can disengage the plastic retainers from below the drum and slide the drum up the extrusion to access the turnbuckle? If I shorten the forestay length by tightening the turnbuckle, do I need to shorten the extrusion as well?
To make things worse, it appears from feeling the turnbuckle, that it is near the most closed position. So, if I embark on this I may have to cut the forestay, or make a new one as well as adjust the extrusion length ..... a lot of trouble to try a different tune!

 

[Alan]

Weather helm has many causes. Your mast rake sounds like it's right on spec. I would suggest you look for other causes. Do you sail with too much twist in the main? Is your main halyard taught enough? Do you have enough outhaul and vang tension? Do you have a fixed three blade prop and/or a dirty bottom?
All these can cause weather helm and they are additive. Also try lowering your traveler in one inch increments. Angle of attack can be a major factor in weather helm.

 

[alexco38]

DON'T undo the Furlex drum !!!

Alan is right. Your mast rake seems right. Traveller, Sheet, Outhaul, and Vang all play a role in weather helm.


Don't EVER remove the two set screws underneath the plastic clamp on the furlex. The 20 ball bearings will fall out.

We had to replace the head stay due to wind damage on an aluminium section. It was a very painfull exercise as you have to deal with 57 + 20 bouncing ball bearings. Each retails at $3.00.

The labor cost to put the drum back together is over $100 besides taking the whole furler down from the mast.

The headstay is connected to the bottom with a Noresman connector. I.E. spreaded wires over a cone and pressed against a cup. There is no easy way to remove the Noresmen cone so most people has to cut the headstay.

http://www.seldenmast.com/download.cfm?download=7691&webnode_id=2105&filename=595-105-E.pdf

http://www.seldenmast.com/page.cfm?id=6622

 

[chuckwayne]

I'll second Alan's answer-you're right on spec for prebend and rake, I'd play with trim before I touched the forestay

 

[shemandr]

So it isn't the rake. Thanks - I don't really need to have that chasing ball bearings experience. Well, not chasing. Murphy's Law clearly states they would mostly fall in the drink.
I think I've got a case of blown out sails. $olution is easy.

 

[chuckwayne]

Shemandr, what year are your sails? we've been talking for a long time, I forget. The 356 seems to be really sensitive to excess draft,especially in the main. I had a really hard time flattening the stock UK sail-finally gave up and had Doyle make me a cruising laminate and the difference is incredible-near neutral helm, much less heel, and she points much better.

 

[shemandr]

So far as I can tell the sails are original - eight years old. I cannot flatten the main. The depth 2/3's up is probably 8% with everything tight excepth vang -another story. It's actually worse when I reef it (Roller). Rolling to the first line doesn't significantly reduce the weather heel and the weatherlyness stinks. When it breezes up its not unusual for me to sail to the second reef line. Not surprisingly - on Wed PM races I can keep up with the fleet in light air. When the breeze is on - forget it.
A Hunter 44, Paradise, who won the Fugawi Race last year in his class, told me the same thing. Scrape those stocks sails and get a real sail.
Its not just about racing. I like sailing and often sail a breezy upwind sail to home on Sundays. It should be enjoyable. I'm having trouble accepting that this boat can't do that. And, you should be able to reduce sail and get the desired loss of heel in order to be safe and comfortable.

 

[Chuckbear]

So far as I can tell the sails are original - eight years old. I cannot flatten the main. The depth 2/3's up is probably 8% with everything tight excepth vang -another story. It's actually worse when I reef it (Roller). Rolling to the first line doesn't significantly reduce the weather heel and the weatherlyness stinks. When it breezes up its not unusual for me to sail to the second reef line. Not surprisingly - on Wed PM races I can keep up with the fleet in light air. When the breeze is on - forget it.
A Hunter 44, Paradise, who won the Fugawi Race last year in his class, told me the same thing. Scrape those stocks sails and get a real sail.
Its not just about racing. I like sailing and often sail a breezy upwind sail to home on Sundays. It should be enjoyable. I'm having trouble accepting that this boat can't do that. And, you should be able to reduce sail and get the desired loss of heel in order to be safe and comfortable.

The mainsail is not built to be flat so you will always have a bulge or draft depending on how the sailmaker designed the sail, no matter how old or new. Roller furling mains will almost never give you the shape and adjustment you get with a traditional rig. The bend in your mast also determines how flat you can get the main. I have seen more times than I can count, an owner complaining about not being able to get the weather helm out when the problem was resolved with correct sheeting and the fact that the boat was just tender by design. Reefing close hauled will slow any boat considerably. You don't say what size headsail you are using and what you do with that during all of this. Chuck

 

[Grateful]

I know how you feel when I first got my boat the mast was set up with 450mm of Rake the boat was uncontrollable, Yes I had to shorten the Forestay. The boat was much better with about 140mm of rake but I have since added new composite sails. she is so much better I can now lock my Steering off with about 5 degrees of rudder and even in 15-20kts of true in a 1-2 mtr swell (I generally only have access to offshore sailing) she will just hold her course I only have to tweak the traveller occasionally in the gusts and she will head up at about 30 - 35degrees averaging about 5.5kts. obviously she goes much better in smooth water. I guess the answer to you problem is get new sails and learn how to trim them, you life will be so much more enjoyable

 

[Grateful]

I should also mention that I have added an extra 230kg bulb to my keel which obviously stiffened the boat up. This was added after a repair, when I developed a Canting keel in 2008 i.e. structural failure we had to gut the boat and re-glass inside and out including all the structural ribs within the boat. Funnily enough when I spoke to Hunter they didn't want to know me stating I must have hit something !!! unfortunately I'm a bit honest and as I hadn't hit anything insurance didn't want to know me either, so 20K later the boat was back in the water. I guess the real problem with the 356 is she is quite a tender boat. I wouldn't recommend the extra weight on the Keel unless you strengthened the hull though.

 

[chuckwayne]

I think you've found your problem-the original UK sails weren't good for much except delivering the boat. I'd talk to a sailmaker-I would recommend Doyle- and get a new main and if it's in the budget a new jib, too. Look for a laminate or a good racing cloth that will hold it's shape over time, you'll see an amazing improvement.

 

[shemandr]

Thanks all again.
More ballast. Sounds interesting. I'm not even considering it, but if I had my druthers I would lose that stupid wing arrangement and just make a bulb.
The story about the canting keel is disconcerting. I wonder if the excess heel caused by mediocre sails could put more force on the hull and lead to the canting keel. We probably will never know but in light of MaineSail's warning about the keel that fell off - its a concern.

 

[Alan]

Wow, you said a mouthful. I dumped the wing thing for a full blown bulb/fin keel. Changed the sailing character unbelievably. Felt like a completely different boat. She points higher, has far less leeway, is stiffer in a puff, yet displaces exactly the same.

If you ever get the chance to switch, do it you wont believe the difference!