Sailing close to wind

[West Breeze]

Hi all
Am new to this forum and was wondering if anyone had any ideas for my sailing problem. I have a 1978 Pearson 23 which technically by the facts on the internet never existed until 1980 and lasted only until 1981 before it was switched to a 23 C. At any rate it is pretty rare as not many were made with a sloop rig. The boat is sound and in great condition, it has a shoal keel, draft of 2.5' with a self contained 2.5' center board built into the keel fin which is operated hydraulically to raise and lower it. I have the original sails which were just never used and still in good condition. It was ordered with a 140 genie on a roller furling and the main. My problem is that the boat simply will not sail close to the wind at all and makes it impossible to make any head way when tacking back and forth if you are going against the wind. The closest i can get the head sail to the wind without luffing is about 35 to 40 degrees. Before this boat I had several small racing boats such as a SJ21 which I could get anywhere on as it sailed with in 10 degrees. I am suspecting that I should ditch the roller furling and go to hank on sails, that it might perform better close to the wind with an original size jib. Any guess or suggestions?

 

[cephius (Dave)]

West Breeze,

Welcome to the forum.

Sailing 10º off the wind is exceptional. It can only be achieved by well tuned and sailed small racing boats.

You are now sailing a cruising boat. Please don't expect the same performance. Everything will be slower and less responsive. I always look 90º off my current heading to determine where my new heading will be after I tack. That's 45º on either side of the wind.

Keep the small racing boat for fast fun

 

[Ray T]

35 or 40% sound pretty god to me . I never heard of a sailboat that would sail to withen 10%. Maybe your way of measurment is more accurate now.

 

[Tim Jedda 22]

Hank ons will help - if you are sailing with a partially furled genoa - but then you're need more sails - obviously. 35-40 to the breeze is pretty good and yep working to windward is tough - try doing it when you're doing 4-5 kts with a 2-3 kt current...!!

And agree with Ray T- within 10 degrees...really??

 

[Tim R.]

Check your numbers West. I do not see how anyone could sail an SJ21 at 10° apparent. 35° - 40° is not bad.

 

[jibes138]

the stronger the breeze the closer you can point in general but 10 degrees sounds a little far fetched. Apparent wind and true wind are very different things. If your boat could plane and was doing say 15 knots the apparent wind could easily move toward zero but the true wind would still be maybe 25 degrees. The mast will disrupt the airflow so sailing at a very high angle will likely stall the sails as the mast will separate the airflow and cause too much turbulence.

 

[Ross]

Ice boats will sail very close to the wind butif you think that 35-40 degrees is bad don't buy a square rigger. I have sailed in a strong current with the true wind on the beam but with the sails trimmed close hauled. about 2 knots current and only about six knots true wind. it was fun but we couldn't go anywhere.

 

[zeehag]

if the mechanical genny is in working order and turned on, then i can see sailing withing 10 degrees of the wind--and only in the event of a dire emergency.is a most uncomfortable point of sail and boats were not designed to sustain that kind of abuse.....neither were people!!!!

square rigger is a bit slow---mebbe a clippership or schooner....gaff rigged of course!!!\

gentlemen never sail to weather.......

 

[BarryL]

Hello,

You didn't state it, so I'll ask: was the centerboard down? If not, lowering it will help pointing a great deal. Otherwise, make sure the rig is properly tensioned with enough backstay tension. Is the headstay sagging and / or the headsail sagging? If so, increase tension to get rid if it. Lastly, make sure the boom is on center. You may need to raise the traveler to get the main centered.

good luck,
Barry

 

[West Breeze]

Thanks

Barry
Now that you mention it the head sail when closed has a sag in it. I will try to tighten. The problem seams that the head sail when all the way out luffs so much earlier than the main. It appears that the main can sail much closer than the head sail. And yes the board was down. If my degrees are off I apologies but the point is that the Pearson is no where close to how close the SJ21 could come to the wind as I raced it it was tuned very well and it could come pretty close to the wind what ever the angle. My thinking was that a smaller sail as the designed jib for the boat might be easier to keep full like the main is than a larger genoa, getting me closer, if I remember right that how it was on the SJ21. Any thoughts on that

Hello,

You didn't state it, so I'll ask: was the centerboard down? If not, lowering it will help pointing a great deal. Otherwise, make sure the rig is properly tensioned with enough backstay tension. Is the headstay sagging and / or the headsail sagging? If so, increase tension to get rid if it. Lastly, make sure the boom is on center. You may need to raise the traveler to get the main centered.

good luck,
Barry

 

[Hermit Scott]

Does it help to move the cars forward to keep the sail from luffing too early? Can you move the cars forward on you boat?
I was sailing today, tacking back and forth into the wind and noticed that the jib would start luffing much earlier than the main. I think the main sheet pulling down on the boom helps out to tighten the leech.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Barry
1. The problem seams that the head sail when all the way out luffs so much earlier than the main. It appears that the main can sail much closer than the head sail.

2....a smaller sail as the designed jib for the boat might be easier to keep full like the main is than a larger genoa, getting me closer, if I remember right that how it was on the SJ21.

1. Of course it will. Think of looking down on your boat from an airplane. If the main is centered with the boom amidships, there is NO WAY you could do that with a jib. Nor would you want to, right?

2. Yup, happens all the time. Larger headsails are harder to trim, until you learn how to do it for you and on your boat.

For hermit, moving the jib car position affects the leech flutter, not luffing. Luffing only happens at the luff of the sail. Moving the cars affects where on the luff the luffing will begin, for instance, moving the cars back starts the luff higher on the jib for dumping air in higher winds. The car position should be changed based on the wind strength and the point of sail.

 

[Hermit Scott]

I thought that luffing happened on the leech. It's so much better to learn where there are 1000 people to contribute.

 

[Stu Jackson]

It's so much better to learn where there are 1000 people to contribute.

It's even easier if you read a book! Or, better yet, for your "price range," try the internet: North Sails and Google sailing and sail trim.

It's all out there, buddy.

 

[Hermit Scott]

It's even easier if you read a book! Or, better yet, for your "price range," try the internet: North Sails and Google sailing and sail trim.

It's all out there, buddy.

I bought a book on sailtrim but I couldn't figure out the terminology then. I thought a sheet was a sail. I just figured out yesterday how to use the tracks on the cabin top. If I went straight from there to the winch it rubbed the cabin top, I suppose there are supposed to be more that two blocks on slides on the boat. The line is meant to be ran from the cabin top to the toe rail then to the winch.
I still think it would be better to have to jib sheet winches where I can reach them from behind the helm. Either that or get an autopilot to hold course temporarily while I tack.

 

[kenn]

West Breeze ,when you tack your pearson 23, what angle do you tack through? if it's approximately 90 degrees... that's normal.

 

[Stu Jackson]

I still think it would be better to have to jib sheet winches where I can reach them from behind the helm. Either that or get an autopilot to hold course temporarily while I tack.

Even without our autopilot I can tack our boat from ahead of the wheel. Get out from behind the wheel, and hold onto from in front. If you like, you can set your wheel brake but just slight, not tight. Start to make your turn with your hand on the wheel, and release the old sheet, pull in the new sheet and turn the wheel back. Trim final after you're on your new course. It's very do-able. Pretty much the only times I'm behind the wheel: leaving the slip, going back into the slip and sitting on our perch seat.

 

[cephius (Dave)]

Hermit,

You just need the right sail controls

 

[Joe]

I thought that luffing happened on the leech. It's so much better to learn where there are 1000 people to contribute.

Now that you have a boat with two sails.... don't you think you could benefit with a few sailing lessons? Or at least read a few books.

 

[West Breeze]

West Breeze ,when you tack your pearson 23, what angle do you tack through? if it's approximately 90 degrees... that's normal.

At least it seams on this boat it takes a little more than 90 to get the geno to fill.