Oil filter gasket failure

[Val]

I have a Yanmar 4jhe in a 1985 h37c. I have had several filter gasket failures where I lose all the engine oil.
I thought it was a filter problem, so switched from Yanmar to Baldwin filters, still have the problem. Also thought putting too much oil in the engine might be the problem.(Engine is at a pretty severe angle, and when I add the 6.5L specified, level is above the dip stick marker).

I'm now thinking it may be an oil pressure problem with either the oil pressure regulator valve at the filter or the lube oil pump pressure regulator valve. The last oil change only lasted 10 hrs.

Has anyone had this problem or worked on the regulator valves?

I do not have a oil pressure gauge on the engine, but maybe it is time.

Thanks for any suggestions.

 

[tommays]

I would install a mechanical oil pressure guage to figure out whats going on its kind of a mircale the motor is still alive as sudden oil pressure loss tends to do dammage pretty fast

 

[Buck420]

Val,

I also have a Yanmar 4JH2.... and I too had an oil filter gasket failure and almost immediate loss of most of my engine oil.
In my case, it was the result of not screwing the oil filter on with enough torque. ( I screwed it on on "hand tight"... and in that particular case, that wasn't enough.) Ever since, I've used an oil filter wrench and made sure I screw the filters on good and tight; and have had no further gasket failures.
If you are wetting the filter gasket w/ oil and screwing the filter on with proper torque, then the only other reason for continued gasket failure might be a "scored" or otherwise not smooth base flange against which the gasket seats.

 

[curley]

Gasket failure

Are you possibly over tightening the filter? just a thought...

I have a Yanmar 4jhe in a 1985 h37c. I have had several filter gasket failures where I lose all the engine oil.
I thought it was a filter problem, so switched from Yanmar to Baldwin filters, still have the problem. Also thought putting too much oil in the engine might be the problem.(Engine is at a pretty severe angle, and when I add the 6.5L specified, level is above the dip stick marker).

I'm now thinking it may be an oil pressure problem with either the oil pressure regulator valve at the filter or the lube oil pump pressure regulator valve. The last oil change only lasted 10 hrs.

Has anyone had this problem or worked on the regulator valves?

I do not have a oil pressure gauge on the engine, but maybe it is time.

Thanks for any suggestions.

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

A properly operating oil pressure by-pass valve, located on the oil pump, opens when the difference in pressure in front of/behind the filter reaches 0.8 - 1.2 kg/cm2. It would therefore preclude what you describe which leads me to suspect:
1. a by-pass valve failure
2. the wrong filter or improperly installed filter
3. too much oil - effective/max capacity in service manual dictates 2.5/7 l at 0 deg installation angle.

There are lots of substitutes for Yanmar filters but I've found none with the proper thread size.

 

[Warren Milberg]

Couple of random thoughts. If your engine is porting oil, are you sure it's coming out from around the oil filter gasket? Are you cleaning the boss/flange after you remove the old filter? Is the screw surface free of defects,dents, or dings? Any defect, grit or dirt there will prevent a correct seal of the oil filter gasket. I don't know your engine, but it is hard for me to imagine it requiring 6.5 litres of oil. Are you sure of that amount?

 

[Don12364]

Any possibility there is an old gasket lodged in the groove so the new one does not get any support and just blows out sideways under the pressure?

 

[Charlie13958]

Oil capacity of a 4jhe5 is 5 liters, check your engine #s with a dealer or mechanic, you may be over filling. Some times engines get the wrong dipstick.

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

Oil capacity of a 4jhe5 is 5 liters, check your engine #s with a dealer or mechanic, you may be over filling. Some times engines get the wrong dipstick.

Given that most marine engines are installed at an angle, the mfg (Yanmar) provides only a range of lube oil ( 2.5 to 7 liters) as I mentioned in my previous post rather than a specific volume (i.e., 5 l). If you want to verify, you can do so by reviewing the engine service manual.

Regardless, it is unlikely this is the problem.

If the pressure is nominal and the proper filter is properly installed, it almost has to be a by-pass valve failure.

 

[Steve Dion]

That has been my thought on this issue too. 6.5-7L seems a lot of oil for one of these engines (but I don't have that model). I would contact your local Yanmar Distributor and get some advice from them.

I would use the dipstick as an indicator for a full crankcase. If that works I would limit it to a full measure on the dipstick.

We have a 3JH2E and the oil capacity is more like 2.5-3 qts.

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

I have the same engine (4JH) and use about 4.5 L. which is mid dipstick

 

[Val]

First of all thank you all for the great and helpful responses.

The posted picture taken at the last failure shows the blown out gasket at the top of the picture as a black bulge, the filter was still tight when I took it off.

I have the service manual for this engine and the oil volume is shown as 3.0/6.5L

It never registered that there was a range, I always assumed 6.5L was the amount I should use.


I hand tighten the filters after oiling the gasket.

Buck: I will be tightening the filter now with a filter wrench, if I can figure out a way to get the wrench on the filter and use it in the confined location. Will be great if the solution is as simple as that.


Curley: I don’t think it is overtightend, just tightened by hand. Yikes, do I have to worry about overtightening too? I don't see any torque reccomendations in the manual, just says tighten 2-3 turns.


Don: My engine angle is about 13 degrees. The 4jhe service manual gives a range of 3.0/6.5L.
Sounds like I should only fill to the dip stick marker as long as it is at least 3.0L.
Not sure how or why too much oil would cause this, by-pass valve failure seems more reasonable.

I’ve had failures with the correct Yanmar filter and with the Baldwin filter which is supposedly for this series engine, so I don’t think it is the filter.

Warren: See picture for failed gasket. I always clean the flange, but have not inspected it, as I cannot get anywhere near the filter location. The oil amount is the max amount as stated in the service manual for this engine.

Donalex: There is no groove on the engine block that I am aware of, just a flat flange. I will check for scratches or scores next chance I get.

Don: I will be checking with my local Yanmar dealer on the cost of replacing the by-pass valve, I don’t think it is serviceable item.


Steve: I think I will be removing some oil and only fill it to the dipstick mark from now on.

Thanks again for all the great information.

Here is the tentative plan.

Tighten filter using a filter wrench
Remove some oil from the engine so oil level is at the dipstick mark.
Get information from Yanmar about replacing by-pass valve. Cost and availability.
At next oil change or filter failure,
Inspect flange on engine block for damage
Possibly replace by-pass valve.
Install oil pressure gauge

[FONT=&quot]Thanks again [/FONT]

 

[Steve Dion]

Val: Be sure you follow up on this and let us know if this works.

PS: have you changed your transmission oil lately?

 

[Don12364]

Catch 22!!

Val,
From your photo it seems the seal is retained by an outer ring on the filter itself rather than being in a groove as on most other engines. If the filter is not tightened sufficiently it will blow out; and if it is over-tightened it will extrude out.
Either way the result is the same - sudden and disastrous loss of all oil.
Catch 22?

The Workshop Manual - printed in Japan I note - seems to indicate that Yanmar are aware of the shortcomings of their design because it calls for screwing the filter in until the seal makes contact with the pump body and then further tightening 2~3 turns more.
If this doesn't do the trick then tough! They don't advise of the likely consequences of overtightening.
If an after market filter does not have a suitable outer collar, or it is too large as it appears in your original photo, then a failure is a virtual certainty.
See below for extracts from the 4JH manual.

This is really a manufacturers problem but if it were my engine and as an interim measure, I would make a seal out of neoprene rubber which was a full disk to fit inside the filter collar but with a hole in the centre only sufficiently large to allow the oil to flow into and out of the filter. Then, being a ring having much more width it would be better able to resist the internal pressure which appears to be the full operating bearing pressure of 42.6psi. The relief valve mentioned previously opens at a differential pressure of 17psi so the input pressure could be as high as 60psi.

 

[Val]

Steve: I will follow up and no I have not changed the transmission oil for
A long time.

Donalex

In looking at the Baldwin filters a little closer I notice that the gasket is easily removable from the channel, furthermore, there are 3 slight indentations at 120 degree intervals which cause a small gap between the inner channel and the gasket. Seems like if the filter is not tightened down very hard, these could be places where the oil pressure might cause a problem.

I have one older Yanmar filter and the gasket is much more difficult to remove from the channel and there are no spaces between the inner channel edge and the gasket. The Yanmar filter is very old and bigger than the ones they sell currently.

One of the reasons I tried the Baldwin filters, was that Yanmar recently changed the size of the filter for this model engine making it bigger and much more difficult to put on.
I have been thinking about adding a remote oil filter setup like some on this site.

Interesting idea about the neoprene gasket, will have to look at the block surface and see f that would work.

Thanks again.

 

[Warren Milberg]

Val:
Thanks for the comprehensive reply to all the posters. We hardly ever see that here. A final thought I have is to suggest buying an articulated or ball joint mirror. They cost less than $10 and mine has really earned it's keep on my boat. It allows you to see into a number of places that just don't allow your head to fit... I recently used mine, with a flashlight, to peer into the innards of my packing gland to ensure I had all the old stuff out prior to repacking.

See: http://www.stanleysupplyservices.com/product-detail.aspx?pn=142-135&ref=base

 

[Benny]

Excesive oil pressure can push a filter out from its seat and cause it to spin out. To much oil or too thick of an oil can increase oil pressure. Bringing a cold engine to WOT in cold weather has been known to push filters out. This is one reason why engine warm up is recommended.

 

[jibes138]

From the picture it looks like the oil filter is a lot larger than the housing it screws onto. I've never seen a filter installation that looks like this before. Double check that you have the right filter and that no one messed with the housing. Usually the filter lip once the seal is compressed is close to touching the housing face providing support to the seal, in the picture the filter lip is outboard of the housing providing no support at all. Be careful of overtightening the filter, they can be extremely hard to get off.

 

[Val]

Warren:
I don’t hang around here as much as I used to so when I come in here with a problem/question and get a bunch of great input, I am going to try to respond
To everyone. I do have 2 articulated mirrors…problem is with my eyesight these days.
Thanks for the link.

Benny:
I was not sure about the oil pressure being higher due to extra oil, but the oil is not too thick, always use Delo 15w40 and I always warm the engine up. I’m thinking the combination of extra oil and filter not tightened enough is the problem.

Jibes138:
The picture shows the blown out gasket, it does not look like that normally . The engine housing filter surface is flat, no channel and Is as large as the gasket circumference. I vaguely recall when I bought the boat, that I had to skewer the filter with a screwdriver to get it off. May have to do that again.

 

[Maine Sail]

Looking at the picture it seems the OD of the filter is bigger than the on engine filter adapter. If this is the case the gasket could easily blow out. I don't recall ever seeing a filter with a diameter bigger than the filter adapter. Another potential issue that I don't recall seeing mentioned is that when the filter was changed the old gasket stuck to the surface and you then had two filter gaskets on there.

I really suspect you have the wrong size filter on there..

Note the OD's of the filters below in relation to the engine filter adapter:

Westerbeke:

Yanmar:

Nanni:

Vetus:

Beta:

Your Filter: