When to reef?

[druid]

Got in a GREAT sail this weekend, but have a question:

First, let me say I don't trust my cheap and nasty handheld anemometer. Having said that, the CANH anemometer was reading about 15 knots apparent, wind was about 60 degrees, I was close-reaching.

I had a reef in the main, the 140% genoa was reefed down to about 100%, both sails were twisted and feathered, and I was heeled 25 degrees and making 6.5+ knots! Now, I would have thought at 15 apparent (about 9 true?), not close-hauled, I should be pretty much unreefed and fully-drawing, wouldn't I? (For those not familiar with a Crown 28 - it's basically like a Cal: long fin keel, 23ft LWL, 9ft beam, 6700/2800 disp/bal, good in heavy weather but like to sail on their ear)

It was a bit hard to judge the wind from sea conditions, etc. cuz it had been blowing 20-25 all night. If I had to guess, I'd say maybe 15-20 true (which is why I doubt the anemometer).

Any thoughts?
druid
"Coatue" Crown 28

 

[Steve Christensen]

Well the standard answer is that the time to reef is when it first occurs to you that maybe you should (unless you are racing). I would usually go by the angle of heel using a cheap inclinometer mounted in the cockpit. If I couldn't dump enough wind or flatten the sails enough to keep the boat below 15° to 20° of heel, then time to reef.

 

[Ross]

A little physics here for help in the decision. The force of the wind varies as to the square of the speed. So 15 kts squared is 225 and 20 kts squared is 400. Therefore 20 knots of wind is nearly twice as strong as 15 knots. When it is gusty it gets even more complex. You might show an average of 14 kts but with max at 22 kts. Now the ratios go from 196 to 484. Reefing not only makes the sail smaller but also lowers the center of effort. If the boat sails well at 12 kts then at 20 kts you should be well reefed.

 

[Benny]

Don't be so hard on the anemometer, The wind aloof is usually stronger than at deck level. Was the speed measured over water or over land? Sounds like fun though and that's what counts.

 

[DougM]

The condition of your sails may contribute to the heel angle. The main needs to get as flat as possible. Traveller above center, Vang on, and outhaul plus cunningham. Jib car location needs to be change when the jib is furled to 100%, so that the jib can also be flattened. Crew on the windward rail.

If the sails are baggy, you may never be able to get the boat top do exactly what you want anyway.

Its stiill possible that you are seeing a lot more wind aloft than what your indicator shows at deck level. hang on and enjoy the ride!

 

[druid]

The condition of your sails may contribute to the heel angle. The main needs to get as flat as possible. Traveller above center, Vang on, and outhaul plus cunningham. Jib car location needs to be change when the jib is furled to 100%, so that the jib can also be flattened. Crew on the windward rail.

Crew - HA HA!

It's really hard to flatten the headsail when it's not sheeted in - but it's brand-new and cut fairly flat. I had the jib car so that the jib was twisted out - bottom drawing, top twisted off so it feathers - I find this works better than feathering the whole sail.

Again, hard to flatten the main more than it was - outhaul all the way out, cunningham tight, but it's a loose-footed sail so bending the boom doesn't do anything. And again, I had the vang and mainsheet set so the main was twisted. I did note that tightening the backstay made the boat "feel" better, but didn't seem to affect heel or speed. (it's a masthead rig so tightening the backstay doesn't bend the mast)

But you're right - it WAS fun (and I probably would have done 7 if the bottom didn't have barnacles on it!)

druid

 

[Alan]

Reefing your 140 down to 100 makes a very inefficient sail. The entry of a mass of rolled up sail creates a huge amount of disturbed air flow over the genoa. Tightening the backstay moves the draft forward in the genoa and reduces the power. I would have flattened the main as much as possible with the mainsheet and vang and controlled the puffs (and therefore heel) with the traveler. Dropping the traveler a few inches in the puffs keeps the boat on her feet without sacrificing speed.
I would consider a dedicated jib (100%) for sailing in those conditions. You would find the boat much more manageable.
Cheers

 

[druid]

Reefing your 140 down to 100 makes a very inefficient sail. The entry of a mass of rolled up sail creates a huge amount of disturbed air flow over the genoa. Tightening the backstay moves the draft forward in the genoa and reduces the power. I would have flattened the main as much as possible with the mainsheet and vang and controlled the puffs (and therefore heel) with the traveler. Dropping the traveler a few inches in the puffs keeps the boat on her feet without sacrificing speed.
I would consider a dedicated jib (100%) for sailing in those conditions. You would find the boat much more manageable.
Cheers

First, aluding to my OP: you're recommending a 100% jib for 10 knots of wind? THAT is my question: is it not unreasonable to have to reef that much in 10 knots of wind?

Now, flattening the main is always something I've had trouble understanding on anything that doesn't have a bendy mast. Note that in this case the boom is well outboard of the rail, so the sheet had to be loose no matter where the traveller was, which means the height of the boom (and therefore the clew) is controlled by the vang. And in these conditions I usually have the vang loose so the boom rises, putting twist in the main so the upper part feathers/luffs. On my loose-footed main, I'm not sure tightening the vang would flatten the sail any...would it? The only way I see to flatten this main is pulling out the outhaul, but it's already as far out as it can go.

So in heavier air, do you pull the boom DOWN (which eliminates the twist)? I just don't see how that would flatten the mainsail... (or for that matter, how flattening the profile would reduce heel more than twisting)

druid

 

[Warren Milberg]

I assume that if you were doing 6.5 kts you were pretty much doing hull speed for your boat. No matter how you flatten the main, adjust the headsail car, tighten the outhaul or vang, you ain't gonna go any faster. All you can do is go slower and it sounds like that was not the problem. I'm one of those unconventional sailors who really doesn 't care much about perfect sail shape (when I'm not racing) once my boat reaches hull speed. I often roll up my 150 headsail a lot -- and certainly more than the 30 per cent conventional theory suggests -- once apparent wind creates too much weather helm and heeling. Although this headsail has a foam luff to "improve" its entry once reefed, I really don't think it makes much difference one way or the other when the wind is blowing hard and the boat is going as fast as it can go. Rather, I'm more concerned with how the boat sails and feels and reef, either the headsail or the main, or both, accordingly. Don't beat yourself up about stuff like this as it sounds like you and your boat were doing all they could do for the given conditions.

Also, I do have a 120 per cent genoa that makes the boat much easier and comfortable to sail in higher winds than reefing the 150. I tend to start the season with the smaller furling headsail and change out to the bigger one once the summer doldrums roll in here on the Chesapeake. Do whatever works for you.

 

[zeehag]

seems to me one would reef , preferably, before the first knockdown...or mebbe after , depending on how bad was the first one......if the song "reef NOW!"" keeps singing in your head, is definitely time to reef.....LOL

 

[shemandr]

With regard to the backstay tension: It doesn't have to bend the mast to improve the overpowering. Putting on backstay will increase forestay tension which will decease sag and flatten the jib - especially in gusts where the deepening sail and increased heal gang up to create weather helm that forces you to put on too much rudder and slow the boat down.
If you were doing 6.5 on a, maybe, 25' waterline you weren't doing badly. 9 kts. seems early to reef but if that's what the boat needs ...
What was the air temp? We don't hear much about it but I wonder if the differing density of the air causes the boat to react differently to the same velocity of air in different temperatures.

 

[NotCook]

I hate those aloof winds...

Don't be so hard on the anemometer, The wind aloof is usually stronger than at deck level...

To me, those aloof winds always seem to settle in around dusk, or when I want to sail somewhere. I hate when the winds are aloof!

I agree with Steve's first answer - if the thought occurs to you - reef!

I kinda like the Hag's first answer, too! Right before you are knocked down! Now, if you can just figure out when that is going to be...

 

[kenn]

The answer of when to reef depends on whether you're racing or not

For our somewhat old but serviceable main, the clue is noise. If the full main can't be trimmed for efficiency without the the leech fluttering noisily, it's time to reef.

It didn't take long for us to get a sense of at what conditions we should reef (for our boat & rig it's over 15 kt), so we can put the reef in before leaving the dock. It's easier to shake a reef out than to put one in when underway...

 

[BarryL]

wind speeds

Hello,

If you were measuring the wind speed at deck level with a hand held unit, and seeing speeds of 15 kts, the apparent wind higher up the mast was probably closer to 20 kts and the true wind (if you were 60 degrees AWA) was probably over 17.5 kts

http://www.sailingusa.info/true_wind_calculator.htm

With an apparent wind of 20 kts, most boats will be reefed.

Regarding when to reef, I reef when my boat feels overpowered or my guests start to cry whichever comes first.

Barry

 

[Rick Sylvester]

Oh jeez, you guys and your physics . . .

maybe I missed it but you don't say if the admiral is onboard. It's the only factor worth considering onboard Anthem.