Best "starter" Genoa with furling

[LakeStlouis23.5]

Greetings... I am new to this site and am not a seasoned sailor. I have owned a 14' Vagabond and now the Hunter 23.5 which we dock on a small lake where we live. Though I have sailed a fair amount my formal training is weak and am mostly self taught.

I tried to do a search for this info and did not come up with any answers though I would have thought there would have been alot of discussion on this.

I am searching for a Genoa sail for my 23.5 Hunter. I looked for used and found a new sail on Ebay but it seems like it is smaller than my existing Jib. I measure my jib as having a 25' luff and 10' foot. Is this the standard jib for my boat? The Genoa on ebay has a 25' luff and an 8'6" foot and is a ruller furling jib.

My desire is to find a good used sail and furler (unless there is a reason why roller furlers are not a good idea on my 23.5) My thoughts are that it would be nice to be able to just put out to sail and just unfurl as much Genoa as I want to run and sometimes not put up a main if just out for a short evening sail.

So my questions are: What size is a Genoa for my boat? What would the percetage of a good genoa be of the main? I see 110 up to 150 refered to.

What roller furler works best and the size of the "foil" (I gather that is the track size for the furler)

Any tips that are good to know in addition??? I see reference to tracking to attach to the cabin top.

Thanks. I look forward to learning form people that have been down this road already. Thanks

Chip C

 

[ChrisM]

Chip,

I am a novice sailor myself, in fact this will be my first season, but I purchased a Hunter 23 last fall and it came with a 150 Genoa on a CDI roller furler. It seems to me that one of the advantages of having a roller furler is that you are able to adjust your genoa anywhere from fully furled to fully deployed. Having a 150 genoa would give you the greatest range of sail area. One thing I noticed about my boat is that it is set up with two sets of tracks to locate the control block for the genoa on each side of the boat. The pictures I have seen of the factory H23 has a fixed control block. You probably would need to install tracks to take full advantage of a 150 genoa if you do not already have them.

Regards,

Chris

 

[LakeStlouis23.5]

Thanks Chris
Can you tell me the lentgh of the foot of your sail. I asssume it is 25 Ft at the luff, in other words it goes all the way to the pin on the mast. Does your Genoa have a name tag on it?

Thanks for your help
Chip

Chip,

I am a novice sailor myself, in fact this will be my first season, but I purchased a Hunter 23 last fall and it came with a 150 Genoa on a CDI roller furler. It seems to me that one of the advantages of having a roller furler is that you are able to adjust your genoa anywhere from fully furled to fully deployed. Having a 150 genoa would give you the greatest range of sail area. One thing I noticed about my boat is that it is set up with two sets of tracks to locate the control block for the genoa on each side of the boat. The pictures I have seen of the factory H23 has a fixed control block. You probably would need to install tracks to take full advantage of a 150 genoa if you do not already have them.

Regards,

Chris

 

[cephius (Dave)]

Chip,
The best starter head sail for any boat is the original one. Most cruisers in this class of boat never change their head sail. If you've used a jib, there's nothing new to learn about a genoa, so I don't see the point for a "starter" one. If you are upgrading your sails, get the sails that meet your needs. The key point is not to get a genoa that overpowers your rig. A sailmaker can advise you best.

As for the furler, both you and Chris listed good reasons to have them. I've had boats with and without them. For the way I sail I would never be without one again.

 

[Benny]

I do not know the measurements of your boat so cannot comment on the sail dimensions. Generally a 100% working jib streches to the mast and a 150% genoa ovelaps the mast by an additional 50%. A genoa is nothing but a larger jib. Roller furllers are a good idea as facilitate sail handling and promote safety by eliminating having to go forward. The idea that as long as you are getting a furler you should hang on it the largest genoa you can find to get more options is terribly flawed. The best sail to hang on a furler is the sail size that best suits the conditions under which you sail and that you will mostly be using fully deployed. As you start furling a headsail it starts to loose its designed shape and efficiency. Also the point of effort is shifted higher affecting the balance. I would not place a genoa on a boat larger than one I would fully deploy at least 90% of the time. Get a size in accordance with the strength of your prevalent winds, your type of sailing and the tenderness or stiffness of your boat. They usually start at 125% and run to 130%, 135%, 150% and end at 155%. Sometimes a 135% may serve you better than a 150% and other times the boat may be perfectly suited with a working jib. We have a trailerable Starwind 223 displacing 3000 lbs with a fixed short keel/centerboard combo and a couple of years ago someone gave us a 150% genoa for it. We of course tried it and found that the boat was too tender for it in any winds in excess of 12 knots. We also found that difference in performance from 5 to 12 knots between our working jib and the genoa was insignificant. It did perform better in wind speeds under 5 knots but since we do not race it was not worth the effort. We still have the sail but do not use it. Hope this little information may be of help.

 

[cephius (Dave)]

Good points Benny.

I only reduce the jib using the furler after the main has been reefed and wind is still overpowering my rudder. The sail on the furler should be fully extended for most of your sailing conditions.

The H260 is a fractional rig with a oversized main and very small jib. It sails very poorly on jib alone. The 23.5 looks similar. I went with an asymmetrical cursing spinnaker to improve light air downwind sailing rather then change the jib to a genoa for a questionable performance improvement upwind.

 

[cephius (Dave)]

One correction, the percent of the head sail is based on the area of the main, not on how far past the mast the genoa reaches. A 135% genoa has 35% more area than the main.

A very important point: Make sure the sail you end up with is made specifically for the brand and model of furler you purchase. If you purchase both used, make sure the seller is willing to refund if you find a mismatch.

 

[ChrisM]

Benny,

Thanks for the info on the Genoa size. I knew I was sticking my neck out a little further than I should with my reasoning.

Thanks,

Chris

 

[LakeStlouis23.5]

Wow...............Lots of great info here. I measure my jib which is a hank on jib measures 25' luff and 10' foot. I am trying to figure out what i shoud get as a Genoa. Doyle says no more than 115% I figure that means maybe 11 ft foot. Sounds like the furling is all I am really getting out of this. Which is a pretty good thing. I will make my decision based on that point. If I am missing anything please let me know.....All comments appreciated.

Chip

One correction, the percent of the head sail is based on the area of the main, not on how far past the mast the genoa reaches. A 135% genoa has 35% more area than the main.

A very important point: Make sure the sail you end up with is made specifically for the brand and model of furler you purchase. If you purchase both used, make sure the seller is willing to refund if you find a mismatch.

 

[Benny]

Dave we have a similar setup on the h320, a working jib and a large roach main. Back in the late 70s early 80s most boat designers subscribed to the theory that the headsail powered the boat and the main was for stability and we saw huge genoas and small mains in boats. That has changed with changes in hull shapes and now the boats are powered by large mainsails and small jibs. There is really nothing to be gained by adding a genoa to these rigs. I have been thinking of an asymmetrical spinaker for downwind performance and I have spoken with other 320 owners and they like them very well. We only do cruising and an assymetrical is much easier to handle. Chip you may be able to convert your headsail for use in a furler. Choose the furler brand and model and have a sail loft modify the luff of the sail. Perhaps Dave can recommend a furler for you. Regarding the %size of the headsail Dave is correct, the minute he said it it hit me, "I knew that" but old habits die hard and I have always estimated size on a genoa using the mast as for me is easier to visualize. Good luck guys.

 

[cephius (Dave)]

Not all furler manufactures offer models for small boats. Mine came equiped with a CDI Flexible Furler. I really like how little room is required for it. Been flawless when the correct furling line is used.

Here's a link that will give you an idea of what's available:
http://shop.sailboatowners.com/category.htm?fno=400&cat=1606&gclid=COeytrCzy6ACFVxH5wodIWSvzg

 

[Nicky17000]

Hi Chip,
If you just got your 23.5, first get used to it before you decide on sail modifications.
The original 110% jib is designed to be sheeted inside the shrouds without fouling on them. Considering that the 23.5 is a lightweight boat, I think that is the beggest you can go as regards to jibs. In this type of rig, the mainsail is the primary driving sail.
These boats sail quite well under main alone, but will be unbalanced under jib alone.
Having said that, I never actually tried it under jib alone, probably it will be ok downwind. I tend to agree with Dave that it might be better to spend the money on a cruising chute.
You have to take in consideration the predominant weather characteristics in your area. Since I am in a predominantly heavy air region, when we bought our 23.5 I felt it a bit overpowered.(mind you, I'm not an expert and mainly self thought) I was considering converting from hanks to furling but then I decided to spend a little more and bought a 95% jib. now I use the original one for light air days only.

 

[LakeStlouis23.5]

Interesting........................We are on a small lake with highly variable winds. I will poke around for a used jib that is smaller than the one the boat came with (thanks for the info that the original jib is actually 110%....It seemed like it must be with the 10' foot.)

I guess it comes back to what you wnat to spend on a self furling rig or not.....I doubt I will ever use a racing chute given the size of our lake and the adeptness of my "crew" so to speak.

If we get in to sailing on the great lakes which I really want to do. I will reconsider this as I am told that the speed you can get the sails down is important.

You are in heavy winds alot........When I start to heel over my heart jumps as it is over 25 degrees just like that. Is that normal. i worry that the keel is not fully full with water. I just dont trust it yet I guess. My line that lowers the keel seems to have a very short stroke like around 10 inches i estimate. Is that about right. This year I intend to go under the boat and watch the keel and see if it fully detracts.

Would you be comfortable running up the michigan side of Lake Michigan figuring harbors are 10 miles apart? This is a trip I would love to take but want to varify the keel is working right.

One more thing. I drop my keel and it fills up and then thats it. It wont over flow the hole that the bilge plug goes in to. a friend said his 26 flooded once when he filled up the keel and forgot to plug the hole. Just goes back to my concern that the keel is not filling all the way up.

Thanks

Hi Chip,
If you just got your 23.5, first get used to it before you decide on sail modifications.
The original 110% jib is designed to be sheeted inside the shrouds without fouling on them. Considering that the 23.5 is a lightweight boat, I think that is the beggest you can go as regards to jibs. In this type of rig, the mainsail is the primary driving sail.
These boats sail quite well under main alone, but will be unbalanced under jib alone.
Having said that, I never actually tried it under jib alone, probably it will be ok downwind. I tend to agree with Dave that it might be better to spend the money on a cruising chute.
You have to take in consideration the predominant weather characteristics in your area. Since I am in a predominantly heavy air region, when we bought our 23.5 I felt it a bit overpowered.(mind you, I'm not an expert and mainly self thought) I was considering converting from hanks to furling but then I decided to spend a little more and bought a 95% jib. now I use the original one for light air days only.

 

[Nicky17000]

Actually the keel works independently from the water ballast. It does not have any downhaul mecchanism, it only goes down by its own weight.
The water ballast cannot come up through the air vent becouse it is above the waterline. to get water in the cabin, you have to pierce the cabin sole.
With the tank full you can see the water through the air vent. I did check ours to see if it full. I poured water through a funnel (after closing the bottom plug). It took less than half a bucket.

 

[LakeStlouis23.5]

I wondered about that too. He said it was a result of leaving the plug out. Maybe he had alot on board.

Thanks

Actually the keel works independently from the water ballast. It does not have any downhaul mecchanism, it only goes down by its own weight.
The water ballast cannot come up through the air vent becouse it is above the waterline. to get water in the cabin, you have to pierce the cabin sole.
With the tank full you can see the water through the air vent. I did check ours to see if it full. I poured water through a funnel (after closing the bottom plug). It took less than half a bucket.

 

[cephius (Dave)]

These are tender boats. They heel quickly. I find that if you keep your eyes looking over the bow, instead of down at the rails, you will feel very comfortable.

It doesn't take that much heel to have the ballast water squirt out the vent hole. Always close the inlet and plug the vent once its full and prior to raising the sails.

Hunters are also very stable boats designed with small rigs for the hull and a pronounced weather helm. Even when you are trying, it's impossible to slap them down. The rudder comes out of the water and the bow points into the wind before the sail hits the water.

Having said that, they are Class C, which means sheltered and inland waters. I would study the weather very carefully prior to going out in the open on Lake Michigan. The summer storms move fast in the upper mid-west. A couple of miles from shelter could be bad.

On Lake Pepin we can hear the warning sirens and get back to the marina before the cell arrives. Even the big boats respect these warnings and head home.

 

[LakeStlouis23.5]

Thanks Dave.....warning heard and i thought the same. I guess we'll rent a boat.

These are tender boats. They heel quickly. I find that if you keep your eyes looking over the bow, instead of down at the rails, you will feel very comfortable.

It doesn't take that much heel to have the ballast water squirt out the vent hole. Always close the inlet and plug the vent once its full and prior to raising the sails.

Hunters are also very stable boats designed with small rigs for the hull and a pronounced weather helm. Even when you are trying, it's impossible to slap them down. The rudder comes out of the water and the bow points into the wind before the sail hits the water.

Having said that, they are Class C, which means sheltered and inland waters. I would study the weather very carefully prior to going out in the open on Lake Michigan. The summer storms move fast in the upper mid-west. A couple of miles from shelter could be bad.

On Lake Pepin we can hear the warning sirens and get back to the marina before the cell arrives. Even the big boats respect these warnings and head home.

 

[Bobbi Ullinger]

One correction, the percent of the head sail is based on the area of the main, not on how far past the mast the genoa reaches. A 135% genoa has 35% more area than the main.

A very important point: Make sure the sail you end up with is made specifically for the brand and model of furler you purchase. If you purchase both used, make sure the seller is willing to refund if you find a mismatch.

I don't think so. As I recall, the percentage is that of the fortriangle. If you are correct, my 110%jib would be 10% larger than the main, when in fact, it is quite a bit smaller than the main.

 

[cephius (Dave)]

Genoas are categorized by the percentage of overlap. This is calculated by looking at the distance along a perpendicular line from the luff of the genoa to the clew, called the LP (for "luff perpendicular"). A 150% genoa would have an LP 50% larger than the foretriangle length.

I stand corrected