I have the manual for my Yanmar but I couldn't find the answer. How much heel is too much heel?
Thanks,
Joe Mullee
Thanks,
Joe Mullee
What's The Maximum Heel For The 3GMF?
- Thread starter Joe Mullee
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Joe, I know I've read that number somewhere.. in the little "Operators Manual" maybe. ?? Seems like it was 25 degrees or so but I don't remember.. There was a discussion on the site 4-5 months ago too.. I looked in my shop manual and didn't find anything.. I will be at the boat tomorrow and will look in the little book to see what it has to say. The determining thing would be reliable oil supply.. the pickup would start sucking air at some point.. Important to have oil level correct too.
Joe
Having wondered about this every time we motor sail, I tried to get an answer from Yanmar but was never left with a sense of confidence in their answer (which was 15-20 degrees). I just took a look at the piping diagrams in my service manual which isn't too precise but it appears the pickup tube is a few diameters above the bottom of the dip stick tube which I know is at the bottom of the sump.
Given the apparent distance of the pick up tube above the pump casing, it certainly appears that the possibility exists for oil starvation. Without knowing or reading anything more definitive on if the pick up is centered in the sump and how high it actually is, I'm not sure there is a dependable answer except to be cautious.
I suspect someone may come along in this thread and recite his experience(s) motor sailing at excessive heel angle with no apparent problem but my take on this is to always remember what a new engine would cost.
Having wondered about this every time we motor sail, I tried to get an answer from Yanmar but was never left with a sense of confidence in their answer (which was 15-20 degrees). I just took a look at the piping diagrams in my service manual which isn't too precise but it appears the pickup tube is a few diameters above the bottom of the dip stick tube which I know is at the bottom of the sump.
Given the apparent distance of the pick up tube above the pump casing, it certainly appears that the possibility exists for oil starvation. Without knowing or reading anything more definitive on if the pick up is centered in the sump and how high it actually is, I'm not sure there is a dependable answer except to be cautious.
I suspect someone may come along in this thread and recite his experience(s) motor sailing at excessive heel angle with no apparent problem but my take on this is to always remember what a new engine would cost.
The rule is, that if you have enough steady wind to heel the boat 20+ degrees then there should be no need to motor sail. No practical reason for finding or pushing the limit. But if it makes you feel better when you reach it your oil pressure will drop and your buzzer, if working, will let you know so you may shut the engine down with no likely consequences.
Steve
I'm not sure I ascribe to the theory one doesn't need to sail and motor simultaneously at least infrequently, regardless of wind speed. I can't begin to count the number of time we have had to motor sail in 15+ knots of wind for lack of any other way to get to a destination in a reasonable time when it lies upwind, when we need to motor sail at the end of the day to bring the boat up to allow flaking (or furling) a mainsail, when motoring broadside across a rolling sea (and therefore a rolling boat) or when caught in a sudden storm when having the engine running is considered (at least by me) prudent seamanship.
Generalities are convenient but saying one need not motor when there is wind just doesn't account for any number of circumstance and it's good to have an idea how it may effect engine lubrication.
Also, it may be just me but I am not too sanguine about replying on a pressure gauge to forewarn me when the engine is oil starved - that puts a lot of reliance on a warning buzzer and even if it works, it's potentially too late by that point.
Guess this serves to show how different people have different perspectives of risk management. Regardless, the point being that there may not be a definitive answer to how much heel different engines can accommodate safely unless someone has anecdotal info how he burned one up my running it heeled. The converse ( running it successfully) is not quite as telling.
I'm not sure I ascribe to the theory one doesn't need to sail and motor simultaneously at least infrequently, regardless of wind speed. I can't begin to count the number of time we have had to motor sail in 15+ knots of wind for lack of any other way to get to a destination in a reasonable time when it lies upwind, when we need to motor sail at the end of the day to bring the boat up to allow flaking (or furling) a mainsail, when motoring broadside across a rolling sea (and therefore a rolling boat) or when caught in a sudden storm when having the engine running is considered (at least by me) prudent seamanship.
Generalities are convenient but saying one need not motor when there is wind just doesn't account for any number of circumstance and it's good to have an idea how it may effect engine lubrication.
Also, it may be just me but I am not too sanguine about replying on a pressure gauge to forewarn me when the engine is oil starved - that puts a lot of reliance on a warning buzzer and even if it works, it's potentially too late by that point.
Guess this serves to show how different people have different perspectives of risk management. Regardless, the point being that there may not be a definitive answer to how much heel different engines can accommodate safely unless someone has anecdotal info how he burned one up my running it heeled. The converse ( running it successfully) is not quite as telling.
Joe, you could...
put a protractor and ruler on the engine manual shop drawing and figure out at what heel angle the proper oil level would reach the pickup tube's mouth. Just a thought...
put a protractor and ruler on the engine manual shop drawing and figure out at what heel angle the proper oil level would reach the pickup tube's mouth. Just a thought...
I don't think one could turn the boat on it's side far enough to expose the pick up to just air. Now if you at running at 2qts down or something like that all bets are off.
The pans are for the most part quite shallow, so when the 3.5 or 4 qts are in the engine the oil comes up fairly high in the sump which is part of the block. Take a gallon plastic milk carton ( the sumps are more vertical than rectangle) and fill it 2/3rs. Put the lid on and lay it on it's side. Tilt it back 5-10* then in that axis turn it on it from side to side, the bottom rear where the pick up is takes quite an angle to get the tube exposed. In some engines there may be baffles that restrict the movement of the oil like in car engines and keep the pick up submerged in oil as well.
Bottom line is if you are motor sailing and your angle of heal is exposing your engine pick up to air, you probably have more to worry about than the engine. Keep the boat on it's feet and the engine full of oil, then no worries.:dance:
The pans are for the most part quite shallow, so when the 3.5 or 4 qts are in the engine the oil comes up fairly high in the sump which is part of the block. Take a gallon plastic milk carton ( the sumps are more vertical than rectangle) and fill it 2/3rs. Put the lid on and lay it on it's side. Tilt it back 5-10* then in that axis turn it on it from side to side, the bottom rear where the pick up is takes quite an angle to get the tube exposed. In some engines there may be baffles that restrict the movement of the oil like in car engines and keep the pick up submerged in oil as well.
Bottom line is if you are motor sailing and your angle of heal is exposing your engine pick up to air, you probably have more to worry about than the engine. Keep the boat on it's feet and the engine full of oil, then no worries.:dance:
Agree With Don
Sometimes, at least for me, using the engine is prudent, even with lots of wind and sometimes because of it.
Thanks for all the other answers as well.
Joe Mullee
Sometimes, at least for me, using the engine is prudent, even with lots of wind and sometimes because of it.
Thanks for all the other answers as well.
Joe Mullee
Don:
I was really joking about waiting for "Benny's Buzzer".
Vinny:
The 2GM & 3GM engine only hold about 2-3 qts of oil.
I was really joking about waiting for "Benny's Buzzer".
Vinny:
The 2GM & 3GM engine only hold about 2-3 qts of oil.
For the yanmar 3jh2 it is 17 degrees per the manual. I suggest that you call Mack Boring or Torresen.
Allan
Allan
Yes but the sump is smaller and is full at that point so the same rules apply. On a 3 qt engine you can't be down a 1.5 qts and expect it to survive. But if it is full it will be fine.
Alan
As far as 17* goes that would mean that you couldn't run the engine in 5' seas with no sails up. We wouldn't be able to go to Cape Lookout except with 5 knt winds out of the N - NW and on a running tide. The numbers given by the manufacturers are going to be really conservative to protect them selves from the lawyers.
Keep the oil full and run the boat.
One last post (probably) if anyone is interested...and Vinny's point is most important...oil MUST be FULL. This came from Larry Berlin who teaches at Mack Boring
Original Message Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 10:01 AM
To: Larry Berlin, at Mack Boring
Subject: Maximum heel? Question came up on Hunter Owners Website today that I've wondered about myself. Any idea Larry, what the maximum degree of heeling angle a running (motorsailing) Yanmar 3GM30F can handle? We regularly sail our boats at 15-30 degrees heel. At what point would oil pick-up and any other issues take place. Thanks for your time and knowledge you continually share with others.
This is a common question and there are several answers. All information is only accurate if the oil is at the full mark on the engine and transmission dipstick and the coolant is full.
1. If the prop shaft angle is 8 degrees or less on a parallel drive engine. Constant heel would be 30 degrees or less with peak heel being 40 degrees. NOTE! Peak heel means, The boat is running at up to 30 degrees and hits a wake and heels over to 40 degrees for 10 seconds or less.
2. On a parallel drive, if the prop shaft angle is 8 to 15 degrees, constant heel would be 20 degrees and peak would be 35.
3. If there is an angle drive transmission and the engine angle is O, constant heel would be 30 degrees and 40 degrees.
4. If the engine with the angle drive transmission is installed at an 8 degree angel. The constant heel would be 15 degrees and peak would be 20.
Remember that if you are sailing beyond constant heel recommendations, there is a chance that the through hull sea cock will come out of the water. This could cause serious engine overheating. I hope this is helpful. Larry
Original Message Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 10:01 AM
To: Larry Berlin, at Mack Boring
Subject: Maximum heel? Question came up on Hunter Owners Website today that I've wondered about myself. Any idea Larry, what the maximum degree of heeling angle a running (motorsailing) Yanmar 3GM30F can handle? We regularly sail our boats at 15-30 degrees heel. At what point would oil pick-up and any other issues take place. Thanks for your time and knowledge you continually share with others.
This is a common question and there are several answers. All information is only accurate if the oil is at the full mark on the engine and transmission dipstick and the coolant is full.
1. If the prop shaft angle is 8 degrees or less on a parallel drive engine. Constant heel would be 30 degrees or less with peak heel being 40 degrees. NOTE! Peak heel means, The boat is running at up to 30 degrees and hits a wake and heels over to 40 degrees for 10 seconds or less.
2. On a parallel drive, if the prop shaft angle is 8 to 15 degrees, constant heel would be 20 degrees and peak would be 35.
3. If there is an angle drive transmission and the engine angle is O, constant heel would be 30 degrees and 40 degrees.
4. If the engine with the angle drive transmission is installed at an 8 degree angel. The constant heel would be 15 degrees and peak would be 20.
Remember that if you are sailing beyond constant heel recommendations, there is a chance that the through hull sea cock will come out of the water. This could cause serious engine overheating. I hope this is helpful. Larry
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