Scanned Charts and SeaClear II..........

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Sumner

.
Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
Charts:
SeaClear II uses raster charts and can use most SB/KAP version 1 - 3 and GEO/NOS commercial charts. Encrypted charts, like BSB/CAP can not be used. Most common projections are supported. Chart datum's are supported. You can add your own charts, scan or capture them, save as PNG, BMP or other common format. Skewed and rotated charts can be calibrated. Chart border can be set to reduce the actual chart area.
The above quote is from .................

http://www.sping.com/seaclear/

I'm wondering if anyone has scanned charts of various bodies of water and then shared them with others. I haven't tried to scan and make a chart that will work with SeaClear yet, but hope to at some point. I've downloaded NOAA ones for coastal areas I'm interested in, but can't find any charts for say the Sea of Cortez that I can download and use.

I'm thinking that if no one has created a data base of charts that individuals have made that maybe that might serve a useful need. Let's say I take the paper charts I have for Lake Powell, Priest Lake (ID), and Kootenay Lake in B.C. Canada and scanned all or parts of them into the correct format for SeaClear and also made them available for others to use (free). If someone else then was going to one of these lakes they could download the charts and use them with SeaClear.

Likewise if I was going to say Lake Meade and someone had made a chart for that lake that would work with SeaClear I could download it and use it. Sure would save a lot of time for a lot of us if a data base was setup and was accessible at any time over the Internet.

The only down side I see to it is from the liability point. If I didn't make an accurate chart and someone had a problem using it would I be liable even if there was a disclaimer of some sort. Sad that we now live in a world that we have to consider this, but maybe it wouldn't be a problem.

Any thoughts guys and has anyone on here actually scanned a paper chart and used it with SeaClear,

Sum

Our Trips to Lake Powell, UT - Kootenay Lake, Canada - Priest Lake, ID

Our Mac Pages

Mac Links
 
Oct 22, 2008
3,502
- Telstar 28 Buzzards Bay
One issue you'd have is that you'd be violating the copyrights of the various chart makers. Even if you offered the charts for free, scanning them and offering them is a copyright violation.

Then you have the liability issues of providing navigation charts. If there were any errors, even if they were the fault of the original chartmaker, you'd be one of the parties named in a lawsuit. Even if you provided a disclaimer... you'd likely still have to defend yourself.
 

Sumner

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Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
One issue you'd have is that you'd be violating the copyrights of the various chart makers. Even if you offered the charts for free, scanning them and offering them is a copyright violation.

Then you have the liability issues of providing navigation charts. If there were any errors, even if they were the fault of the original chartmaker, you'd be one of the parties named in a lawsuit. Even if you provided a disclaimer... you'd likely still have to defend yourself.
OK thanks for bringing that up.

For the sake of discussion let's ignore those for a moment and see if anyone has any thoughts on creating a data base of scanned charts,

Sum
 
Oct 22, 2008
3,502
- Telstar 28 Buzzards Bay
A few technical questions.

First, who would be managing the database. For instance, if two people scan the same chart, would one replace the previous one, assuming that it was of a newer chart, or would they both be available?

Second, where would the database be located? Someone would have to provide server space, a domain name, etc. for the database.

Third, how would charts be submitted? Would they be submitted by FTP, e-mail?

Fourth, would anyone vet the charts? I think someone would need to examine, at least cursorily, each chart submitted to make sure that it was not tampered with or grossly distorted or otherwise faulty.
 

Sumner

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Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
A few technical questions.

First, who would be managing the database. For instance, if two people scan the same chart, would one replace the previous one, assuming that it was of a newer chart, or would they both be available?

Second, where would the database be located? Someone would have to provide server space, a domain name, etc. for the database.

Third, how would charts be submitted? Would they be submitted by FTP, e-mail?

Fourth, would anyone vet the charts? I think someone would need to examine, at least cursorily, each chart submitted to make sure that it was not tampered with or grossly distorted or otherwise faulty.
Those are definitely items that would have to be dealt with, but I don't see anything there that more or less hasn't been handled before. Right now I have tons of info on my site and get 6-7 million hits a year on it.

I guess my main questions are would there be an interest in a data base like that, would people contribute to it, could charts that are public domain be found (to get around the copyright deal). In other words would this be something to pursue and would people get involved with it in a manner similar to other open type applications and/or data bases.

Would you use it and/or contribute to it?

I enjoy trying to problem solving and looking for better solutions and personally think this might have some possibility and have benefits to a number of us. I was hoping to see where someone posted that it was already being done and give a link. That would save a lot of work.

Thanks,

Sum
 
Feb 26, 2004
23,356
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
I think conceptually you would be attempting to replicate what "professional" organizations and vendors have been doing. What is it that makes "your" charts so special? Is it because no one else has them anywhere? If that's it, why not quit while you're ahead and make the charts available for people online, if you haven't already done so on your website (I haven't checked) and let them play around with them as they see fit.

The "extra" effort to make them work with a GPS plotter may be something other folks have already done. If not, ask yourself: Why? If it's because they are of obscure areas, or that no one really "needs" a GPS to pilot in those places, then paper charts would continue to suffice.

When I first read your thread I just couldn't understand what "value added" you would be providing. Maybe I still don't.

I echo the liability issues concerned. For that reason alone, it isn't worth it.

Finally, with the advent of Facebook, for instance, I've heard on some other boards: "Why don't we start a Facebook page for our XYZ boats?"

Point is there are already too many boating websites that the information distribution of, for instance, good information about charting, electric systems, electronics, is already so diluted that it's a handful of individuals on each message board that eventually become "trusted" on those boards and contribute.

Hanging out here for some years, I've come to know the guys I really trust and listen to their advice. I've recently gone to a few others and keep coming back here, because it's straightforward and the questions and answers make sense. Some others? I was nudged over to one and find I can't handle the complete lack of even basic understanding of any of the basic boating subjects. The site oughta be called "newbie in everything." But it's not, and the better guys keep having to repeat themselves. There's little organization and the use of the search engine is never suggested. It's like there's no institutional memory and little community, but rather three guys telling everyone else what to do. I rarely visit anymore.

There are other specific websites that also work well. We've kept our C34 one design website up to date with good contributions from many of our skippers, and for some reason it has tended to become more technically oriented than most others. While we have a section for "cutesy" boat pictures and cruises, most of our activity is technically oriented. I guess we feel that if folks can get their boats there and back safely, they can take all the pictures of their boats they want! The C25 and C36 'sites are also great with a very helpful "community," just like here.

Organizations like BoatUS also have their "areas" but I just don't go there, so have no idea how competent the discussion answers may be. Another area of dilution.

Gee, may we should make everyone come here! :naughty:

And while I'm at it: ha!: I love this site because it doesn't have separate "categories" like electronics, electrical, mast and rigging, etc. I like the idea that any topic can be about any subject and they just come up chronologically. I've learned more about things I would not have investigated on my own had I not simply read a question and learned from the answers. I just hate having to click through multiple categories to read "the dailies."

Sorry for the editorial, but sometimes "there's just too much of a good thing" is where I was going with that thought.
 

Sumner

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Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
I think conceptually you would be attempting to replicate what "professional" organizations and vendors have been doing. What is it that makes "your" charts so special? Is it because no one else has them anywhere? If that's it, why not quit while you're ahead and make the charts available for people online, if you haven't already done so on your website (I haven't checked) and let them play around with them as they see fit.

The "extra" effort to make them work with a GPS plotter may be something other folks have already done. .............
No I don't have "my" charts. This is about using SeaClear II and scanning paper charts with it and possibly sharing the resulting digital charts if there are no copyright issues. This isn't about me it is about possibly setting up a network of SeaClear users that would like to share chart data.

At this point I haven't tried scanning any paper charts and adapting them to SeaClear myself I've just been using the available NOOA charts, but they don't cover a lot of water that some of us sail on. Others have scanned paper charts and there is SeaClear documentation on how to do it.

I guess if someone is unsure or doesn't understand what SeaClear II is then the post won't make any sense. Sorry about that, but SeaClear II and Open CPN are free software that are basically an alternative to the "commercial" products out there and use free NOOA charts and other charts if they are in acceptable formats and display them on your computer in a chartplotter format to either plan a route or run in real time using a GPS puck.

As far as the liability thing, Garmin, SeaClear, Open CPN all have warnings about using alternative information to navigate by and that they shouldn't be used as your only source for safely navigating.

I guess if no one has anything positive to say about pursuing this then I got my answer.

Thanks,

Sum

Our Trips to Lake Powell, UT - Kootenay Lake, Canada - Priest Lake, ID

Our Mac Pages

Mac Links
 
Feb 26, 2004
23,356
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
I understand. I guess my question is if you have charts that NOAA hasn't produced or any other governmental or large organization, you must have gotten the paper charts from somewhere. So as I get it, you want to scan them in for others use on SeaClear, right?

The question you ask is basically "what is the audience for my "product"?" If you think it's wide enough, then go for it. A list of "what you have" to "upload" would be helpful, although you did mention it earlier and/or have it on your website. Then the audience is for those bodies of water who DO use SeaClear. Could be a (very?) small gaggle of skippers.

I still agree that the potential liabilities to you of misuse would seem to far outweigh the benefit to a few. And we like having you around here!
 

SirWm

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Sep 27, 2008
25
Macgregor 26S Evansville, IN
Sick'em Sum

Sum, I think it would be a great idea for those of us that sail inland waters. It is not easy to find free charts for the lakes I would like to try and I also like just looking at the possibilities that new places would offer. I haven't tried scanning paper charts into Sea Clear but I would enjoy having someplace I could get charts of the places I read about you and other inland sailors have sailed.
As far as the liability issue, a simple "Not For Navigation" should do it.

Keep a positive attitude and keep us posted if you can get past the naysayers. :naughty:
 
Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
OR you could

Grab a copy of the SEACLEAR II code (it is opensource BTW) and write the code to allow the use of google earth data. then all those images of the entire earth (less some "restricted" areas that have not been updated since the GWOT) would be avalabel for free.
While this does not get depth ti does show the topography and roads. Could be useful in finding a harbor, landmark etc
 
Oct 22, 2008
3,502
- Telstar 28 Buzzards Bay
I think that the OP's idea is far more applicable to inland and foreign waters, rather than those that NOAA issues free charts for already. I seriously doubt that the legal liabilities would be circumvented by a "Not for Navigation" disclaimer, given what he is trying to do and the fact that the charts would be posted for use with navigation software.

Sum, I think it would be a great idea for those of us that sail inland waters. It is not easy to find free charts for the lakes I would like to try and I also like just looking at the possibilities that new places would offer. I haven't tried scanning paper charts into Sea Clear but I would enjoy having someplace I could get charts of the places I read about you and other inland sailors have sailed.
As far as the liability issue, a simple "Not For Navigation" should do it.

Keep a positive attitude and keep us posted if you can get past the naysayers. :naughty:
 

druid

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Apr 22, 2009
837
Ontario 32 Pender Harbour
I don't quite understand the idea for US charts - are they not already available for free in a format SeaClear understands (BSB3)? I could see it for Canadian charts, because they're only available as BSB4/5 (encrypted) so SeaClear can't read them. BUT...
1. The Canadian Gov't is VERY picky about their charts (which is why they're encrypted), and any "public dissemination" would require their approval, and
2. I've tried scanning charts for OziExp and it's a REAL pain in the butt to get it right. One chart is at least 8 letter-sized scans, they have to be ABSOLUTELY straight, you have to get the exact Lat/Long for each corner... Trust me, it's not really worth it.

druid
 

Sumner

.
Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
We are not interested in the areas that the NOOA charts cover as there is obviously no need to replicate those. There are believe it or not a number of us that don't sail coastal waters covered by NOOA charts. We would like to use SeaClear and not have to buy commercial charts to use in say a Garmin chartplotter. We would like to use SeaClear and make routes and download the waypoints to a handheld GPS such as a Garmin 76.

Druid has made the very case for creating a data base like what I envision as it is a "pain in the butt" to scan and and get the chart right, but if I was welling to take the time to do it for one lake and someone else did it for a second lake and someone else did it for a third lake, etc., etc. and those were put in a common accessible, free, data base then we could all benefit from each others efforts when we wanted to plan a trip to a different lake/area not covered by a NOAA chart.

You can download for free USGS topo maps.....

http://store.usgs.gov/b2c_usgs/b2c/start/(xcm=r3standardpitrex_prd)/.do

..........that cover about any area of the US you would want to sail in. They download into a PDF format. I've found programs, haven't used them, to convert between PDF and say JPEG, but not to the formats SeaClear uses yet but believe there is a way if I keep looking. I think others have done this. The downloads are free from the USGS, but I haven't looked into any legal problems of converting those maps into file formats that SeaClear can use and then putting those out there in the public domain.

I am really beginning to feel the liability part would 'not' stop something like this from happening, but of course you are all free to have your personal feelings on the subject. The following is a quote from the site for SeaClear dealing with the license agreement that you say you agree with if you are using SeaClear:

http://www.sping.com/seaclear/

You are granted a free non-exclusive license to use the SeaClear software subject to the following terms and conditions:
You read and agree to the full license text in the included SeaClear manual.
SeaClear is provided 'as-is', without any warranty or support, expressed or implied. In no event will the author or Sping be held liable for any damages arising from the use of this software.
All SeaClear software and documentation is the property of and copyrighted by Sping.
Local law and regulation may restrict the use of electronic navigation software. Always follow local regulations, have original charts and use appropriate navigation equipment when using SeaClear.
SeaClear must never unattended send information to any device controlling the boat.
SeaClear is only a navigational aid, not a replacement for navigational knowledge, nor can it navigate by it self.
Any map I created or someone else created would be "only a navigational aid, not a replacement for navigational knowledge". As you guys always say have backup paper charts.

I probably should of not posted this thread on this site as it seems there are very few here that use SeaClear and/or OpenCPN. I'll probably re-post it over on http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/ as there are a number of SeaClear users over there, but I do appreciate all of the feedback that I have gotten here,

Sum

Our Trips to Lake Powell, UT - Kootenay Lake, Canada - Priest Lake, ID

Our Mac Pages

Mac Links
 
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