Replacing ports/glassing in the old holes first

[Hermit Scott]

The boat sat for 10 years with out moving. It didn't leak too bad. I start sailing it and EVERYTHING started leaking. I just got all the chain plates cleaned, and rebedded with 4200. All the ports leaked, but I wanted to replace them with opening ports so I started glassing them all closed.
3 on one side, I took out the ports and started cutting from the outside. Then I fit a piece of thin plywood in and started glassing. After a few times at this, it looks terrible from the outside and is still not done. The other three, yesterday, I took them out, routed out a groove in the edges. Then screwed 1/8" smooth ABS to the outside. Then glassed from the inside. The outside will be perfectly smooth when I take off the ABS. The inside will get covered with wood.
Now I have to finish the first 3 that I glassed from the outside. Basically I have 3 recessed areas where the ports used to be. I can sand down around the edges to make it level with the side of the boat, but how do I fill in the recessed areas so they will be smooth?
I should have done the first 3 like I did the last 3 but I am past that now. You can kind of see what the bad side looks like in the picture. I brought a camera with me, bought some batteries, but left the memory card at home, of course.

What is the best procedure for getting a perfectly smooth and flat surface when there are huge sections indented in the side of the cabin top?

 

[sailingdog]

Unfortunately, there is no easy way to do this. You're going to have to build up the depressed areas with fiberglass and then fair the area and then sand it flush. It is a RPITA...

 

[Hermit Scott]

Unfortunately, there is no easy way to do this. You're going to have to build up the depressed areas with fiberglass and then fair the area and then sand it flush. It is a RPITA...

Don't tell m that!:cry: I don't have much confidence in my bodywork abilities.

I can screw the 1/8" ABS to the area around it. But I don't know how I would fill it in with resin???

 

[sailingdog]

Build up the area a bit with fiberglass first...then when you're within an 1/8" or so... screw the ABS down and drill a couple of holes in it, and inject thickened epoxy into the area using a caulk tube and caulking gun.

Not the way I'd do it...but it would probably work for you.

Don't tell m that!:cry: I don't have much confidence in my bodywork abilities.

I can screw the 1/8" ABS to the area around it. But I don't know how I would fill it in with resin???

 

[Ross]

Hermit, it is just like finishing dry wall, each pass gets a little better. You will want to make a long board for sanding. Use a notched trowel and lay in a coat of fairing compound and then sand it with the long board until you are hitting all of the ridges. then lay in fairing compound with a smooth trowel. It just take time. The more glass you use the stronger you will make it.

 

[Maine Sail]

Hermit,

Now you know why I tried to talk you out of this a long time ago when you brought it up.

The way I would have done this is with a sealed piece of waxed acrylic to the inside with butyl tape. Then over the acrylic with butyl seal Gorilla Tape to further hold it in place. From the outside I would insert a 1/8", or thinner, piece of waxed acrylic cut out to match the window opening very accurately. This piece gets snugged up against the flush piece on the inisde. Then lay in a balsa or foam core to within 1/8" to 3/16" from gelcoated the hull sides.

Prior to all this the inside & outside edges would have been beveled to about a 10:1 - 12:1 ratio from the inner edge of the hole. Tape around the bevel to protect the rest of the gelcoat from errant resin. Lay in the core over the 1/8" thick waxed acrylic and trowel out with some thickened epoxy (I call it hull & deck putty) then when still hot lay in your first piece of glass and wet it out. Now cut successively larger pieces of glass, starting from the inner edge of the bevel working up and out, to build up the thickness, growing the pieces up & out of the bevel until nearly flush with the deck sides. Fair and fill with a mix of cabosil and milled fiber. Then re-sand the entire area just shy, 1/32" or less, of the rest of the deck, use a straight edge, so you can build the gelcoat flush with it. Mix a batch of color matched gelcoat and thicken with cabosil and roll it in. Then fair it and wet sand removing any remaining imperfections. Roll on a final unthickened batch of waxed/finishing gelcoat, perhaps two, and wet sand, buff and polish.

You will do a similar process on the inside but it will be far more difficult to gelcoat match the molded liner. You can probably get away without a bevel on the inside but I would do it for a seamless patch. I would either fill and fiar the interior cabin sides with thickened epoxy or polyester and then have a paint store match the interior gell and paint it. You could gelcoat it but paint wil be far easier on the inside and won't get beat up by UV..

This is one of those projects that seems easy, but one that is not. Without beveled edges your patch will crack away from the rest of the deck when the hull & deck flex. If you just glass over the existing edges you'll never get it fair and you'll have a hump. Trying to fair it will result in a very thin bond area that will likely fail too. These edges where the new and old glass bond should be a 10:1 - 12:1 taper.. (West System 12:1 bevel repair)

Good luck!!!

 

[Stu Jackson]

Now you tell me again, redux

4200 for chainplates? Where do you think they're tryin' to go?

Good luck with your former ports.

 

[Hermit Scott]

I tapered it back as much as I could. When I cut the port side apart, it was not what I expected. Much of my boat, including the coach roof has been 1/2" glass, 1/2" plywood, and another 1/4" on the inside. Around the big safety-glass ports it was 1/4" or less glass, 1/4" or 3/8" plywood and 1/8" of glass on the inside.
The ugly side(port) was completely rotted away inside. Everything was completely rotted and delaminated. I cut it back until I ran out of rotten wood, that's why the ports look so big on that side. I left the inside fiberglass glass. I put a thin piece of plywood in the big hole and screwed it in place to the inside glass to hold it. I started glassing from there. I laid the largest piece first though and started getting smaller as I filled it in. I started with epoxy to try to get the bond to hold around the edges.
From the inside the port side is plywood flush up against 1/8" of glass.
The starboard side was completely intact very little rot. Some one actually took the port lights out of that side and used thickened epoxy to cover the plywood.
Alright, there is no quick easy trick. I will continue to fill in the port side carefully and try to get it right.
BTW, I am just going to paint over everything to protect it from UV. I am going to spray the whole deck when I get finished with everything I am doing to it. Hopefully next winter or late fall.
I don't regret this project at all. This boat is for my education in boat repair/remodeling. Every project I do takes longer than it should, but that is part of the learning process.

 

[Hermit Scott]

4200 for chainplates? Where do you think they're tryin' to go?

Good luck with your former ports.

Yeah, my first upper shroud chain plate, I did with 5200! Hopefully I sell the boat before that has to be removed. that was one of my first repairs, even before I rebuilt my enigne and moved the boat.

 

[Ross]

Yeah, my first upper shroud chain plate, I did with 5200! Hopefully I sell the boat before that has to be removed. that was one of my first repairs, even before I rebuilt my enigne and moved the boat.

Not to worry ! 5200 doesn't stick very well to stainless steel.

 

[captstu]

What is the best procedure for getting a perfectly smooth and flat surface when there are huge sections indented in the side of the cabin top?[/QUOTE]

Polyester Putty is the secret. Sand (60 or 80 grit) until there is a clear but small indentation every where the hole used to be, purchase polyester putty (Bondo for really deep holes, fine putty for this type of finish). Mix according to instructions and apply with a plastic plaster knife. Smooth approximately in 1 pass with a flat plastic edge big enough to cover the hole.

Don't work the putty, it hardens very quickly, just put it on, smooth it once and live with the results.

Sand again after 15 to 20 minutes with 80 to 100 grit depending on how good a job you did with smoothing. Apply a second coat, smooth once, sand with 150 or higher grit unless you need to cycle again through the 80 grit.

I filled in speaker holes, poor docking holes and general big cracks on a Gemini I'm restoring. None of the restoration is visible.

You can gel coat after smoothing or paint. Don't use Brightsides, the stuff isn't very good and lasts only about 2 seasons.

shearwater-sailing.com --> Gemini Restorattion

 

[jibes138]

Hermit,
One option I haven't seen discussed is to make a mold by laying up some glass on the outside of your boat after first putting some release agent on it. Then you can make an exact copy of the actual boat by laying up onto the mold to the thickness desired. You can then trim the layup and boat to fit and bond it all together, you can put a 12:1 taper on both pieces and fit them together that way. You will still have to finish one side of the repair, but in this case if you use a laminate of some type on the inside to hide the rough surface you should be OK. Will cost you some glass and resin but you will always have the mold if you ever need it. Are you going to put high end opening ports like bronze ports in place of the ones you removed?

 

[Hermit Scott]

Hermit,
One option I haven't seen discussed is to make a mold by laying up some glass on the outside of your boat after first putting some release agent on it. Then you can make an exact copy of the actual boat by laying up onto the mold to the thickness desired. You can then trim the layup and boat to fit and bond it all together, you can put a 12:1 taper on both pieces and fit them together that way. You will still have to finish one side of the repair, but in this case if you use a laminate of some type on the inside to hide the rough surface you should be OK. Will cost you some glass and resin but you will always have the mold if you ever need it. Are you going to put high end opening ports like bronze ports in place of the ones you removed?

I think I will continue filling in the recessed areas until it's just below where I want it. Then I will screw 1/8" ABS to the outside with some holes drilled at the top. Then I will try filling it with low viscosity epoxy. It will likely have some bad sections, but they will be smaller and I will be able to fill and sand them.

Yes I want nice ports! I removed 6 ports that were extruded aluminum and safety glass, as per Catalina 1979 building methods. I may only put two opening ports back in. If I have a choice between 4 or 6 cheap ports or 2 high quality ports, I would choose the high quality. I don't want as much light as it had before. I'd like two 5"X12" bronze opening ports in the rear section that would be above the galley and the nav station.

Ross- is that true of 5200 and stainless? I wire wheeled them and acetoned them pretty well. I filed out the holes until it had fresh fiberglass to adhere to also. On that one chain plate 5200 is everywhere it touches fiberglass, inside and out. (I didn't know what I was doing at the time) All the other chain plates are 4200 sealed only from the top.

Jibes- I don't believe there is any way to make a mold that I could use. Other than a flat flexible piece of plastic layed on the outside.

 

[Ross]

Hermit, I made some stainless steel plates with long nuts welded to them in hopes of hanging rubrails on my hull. The plates are 2x3 inches with a one inch long 3/8-16 nut welded in the center. I mounted three of these on each side of the boat to support 1x3 white oak rub rails. Loose holes and 3/8 round head machine screws with fender washers held everything in place. The rails were bent to fit so I wasn't "springing" them into place. The blob of 5200 was about 1/4-3/8 thick (makes a nice cushion) and allowed a week to cure before I hung the wood on them. I had scuffed them with a 24 grit abrasive disk and wiped them with methyl ethyl ketone. In less than 3 days two had pulled loose. So I glassed them on. I didn't want to drill through the hull and install bolts. Later I checked 3M spec's and found that 5200 bonds with only about 10 percent of the strength of the bond to fiberglass and always fails on the SS side.
I have since "tested" the construction method and haven't torn any fiberglass.

 

[Bill Roosa]

Opening ports????

You said you are REPLACING the ports. so why are you glassing them over? sure you might have to do some filling in around a shorter edge of the opening port but this makes no sense to go to a lot of trouble to fill the hole in really nicely and then cut it out again.
Perhaps I am missing something.
If I where REPLACING ports I'd take out the old ones and then buy slightly larger new opening ones and just enlarge the hole. If I could not get a good (read bigger in both height and length) new port I'd just build up the hole where I needed to as access to both sides makes things easier.
Also: I don't see anybody mentioning gelcoat. The factory boys use gelcoat over fiberglass for a reason. That reason being it is really hard to get a structurally strong glass mat that is fully wetted and still looks good. If you are going to fill in the port holes (still don't know why but WTF) I'd apply a piece of stiff cardboard covered with plastic wrap to the outside, paint on gelcoat from the inside and then start laying glass, ply and more glass then finish up with a gelcoat layer on the inside.
FWIW

 

[Hermit Scott]

Bill- I took out 6 ports. I am only putting 2 back in. The place where I am putting ports is much larger than the ports I intend to install. I don't know exactly what I am going to install yet so I can't make the holes now.
I used ABS smooth plastic and painted polyester resoin to the inside, then applied chopped strand mat, then roving after that on one side of the boat. The other look completely fubar at this point but will probably end up ok.

 

[Ross]

Re: Opening ports????

Bill, I replaced the ports in my Islander. The picture windows in the main cabin were about 4 feet long and a foot tall. Even my deck hatch isn't THAT big. Sometimes circumstances just demand that you do things the hardway.

 

[RichBone]

For polyester filler, I've used "Evercoat formula 27" with good success. Almost idiot proof mixing, sets up fast and sands and fairs well.

Rich

 

[Hermit Scott]

Bill, I replaced the ports in my Islander. The picture windows in the main cabin were about 4 feet long and a foot tall. Even my deck hatch isn't THAT big. Sometimes circumstances just demand that you do things the hardway.

Hey Ross, I know you are a craftsman, how did you glass those big picture windows in and get it right?
I make it a point to "test" my rub rail construction everytime I enter the slip, and sometimes when leaving the slip. Also I know that my bow rail is pretty sturdy!

 

[Ross]

Hey Ross, I know you are a craftsman, how did you glass those big picture windows in and get it right?
I make it a point to "test" my rub rail construction everytime I enter the slip, and sometimes when leaving the slip. Also I know that my bow rail is pretty sturdy!

Keep in mind that it has been about 18 years. I think that I waxed a piece of formica and braced it against the inside after I had ground a wide taper on the margins. Then I cut glass to fit the hole and each pice a little bigger than the one before. one chopped strand mat and one woven roving several layer and layed it up with polyester resin. grinding off and spurs or white spots that were dry. I would run my hand over it to feel for fair when I got close to full I went to fairing compound and a random orbit sander. You can feel non fairness better than you can see it.