The rig has swept back spreaders, a 110 jib and no spinnaker. What do you do to get to your destination the fastest way (VMG) if it is near DDW?
Downwind?
- Thread starter Quoddy
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Many boats will actually do much better "tacking" downwind on deep broad reaches rather than running. When running dead downwind, the best speed you can do is wind speed, and often not even that. By sailing on a broad reach, you can get the sails to generate lift and often sail a good deal faster, especially if you're in a multihull. 
The increase in speed created by the lift generated, in many boats, will more than offset the increased distance sailed, improving VMG.
The increase in speed created by the lift generated, in many boats, will more than offset the increased distance sailed, improving VMG. 
It depends on wind speed
There are light days( 3 to 4) were were with my reaching spinaker were i can make 5 knots BUT only in the compleatly wrong dirrection and cant even keep it flying were i need to go
There are light days( 3 to 4) were were with my reaching spinaker were i can make 5 knots BUT only in the compleatly wrong dirrection and cant even keep it flying were i need to go
Different answers for different boats
The best way for you to find the answer will be to take a handheld GPS. Set a waypoint directly downwind at a far distance and look at VMG to that waypoint. This is just a way to get a VMG downwind readout that you can test , fancy wind instruments already do this for you.
Then try it both ways and see where you hit the maximum VMG. On a jib and main boat that I race on sometime it seems that dead down wind, wing and wing is faster. With a spinnaker is seems that broad reaching and 'tacking" donwind is faster.
Bottom line is. Get test data with your boat and sails. Keep records and you will know what angle to sail in different wind speeds.
The best way for you to find the answer will be to take a handheld GPS. Set a waypoint directly downwind at a far distance and look at VMG to that waypoint. This is just a way to get a VMG downwind readout that you can test , fancy wind instruments already do this for you.
Then try it both ways and see where you hit the maximum VMG. On a jib and main boat that I race on sometime it seems that dead down wind, wing and wing is faster. With a spinnaker is seems that broad reaching and 'tacking" donwind is faster.
Bottom line is. Get test data with your boat and sails. Keep records and you will know what angle to sail in different wind speeds.
DDW
I never sail DDW. Couple of reasons. First, this is the absolute slowest point of sail. Second, you have to either go wing and wing, or you are blanketing the jib, and it mostly just flogs around. And last but not least it is necessary to add a preventer, or risk an accidental jibe, which can be dangerous, and can damage the boat. !5 or 20 degrees off DDW, is a much faster point of sail, both sails can pull well, and the risk of an accidental jibe is greatly reduced. Of course, if you have a Code 0, or a spinnaker things then change.
I never sail DDW. Couple of reasons. First, this is the absolute slowest point of sail. Second, you have to either go wing and wing, or you are blanketing the jib, and it mostly just flogs around. And last but not least it is necessary to add a preventer, or risk an accidental jibe, which can be dangerous, and can damage the boat. !5 or 20 degrees off DDW, is a much faster point of sail, both sails can pull well, and the risk of an accidental jibe is greatly reduced. Of course, if you have a Code 0, or a spinnaker things then change.
It will depend on the wind speed, as cited above.
A 110% Jib will not get you downwind , with any speed,
in winds much under about 10 TWS.
In light air reaching up will net the best VMG, as the wind
speed increases, at some point there will be a cross over
where it is quicker to pole the jib out to windward,
with the pole eased forward a bit, and squaring it more aft
as the wind builds. Sea state may have an imact as well.
In strong winds the best VMG will be with the pole squared
well aft, and running DDW.
Depending on the length of your whisker pole, in some
light to moderate conditions, you will be fastest with the
pole to leeward, sheeted as far aft as possible, and reaching
with an AWA of about 100 - 120.
A 110% Jib will not get you downwind , with any speed,
in winds much under about 10 TWS.
In light air reaching up will net the best VMG, as the wind
speed increases, at some point there will be a cross over
where it is quicker to pole the jib out to windward,
with the pole eased forward a bit, and squaring it more aft
as the wind builds. Sea state may have an imact as well.
In strong winds the best VMG will be with the pole squared
well aft, and running DDW.
Depending on the length of your whisker pole, in some
light to moderate conditions, you will be fastest with the
pole to leeward, sheeted as far aft as possible, and reaching
with an AWA of about 100 - 120.
On both my previous 22' MacGregor/Venture and my friends 25' MacGregor I/we sometimes use a Gennaker/Asemetrical sail with a sock, to sail anywhere from DDW to 60 degrees off directly into the wind. With practice and the tack set on a block to make it fully adjustable we have manged to sail very well and you don't need a spinnaker pole to set it. Just be sure that you pull the sock down and/or haul it down before the wind pipes up to 12/15 knots and it becomes almost uncontrolable, especially if you are single handing.
novelman
For sailing off the wind you will realize the best speed with an A-kite. Never sail DDW, it is the slowest point of sail. Sailing the gybe angles is the right way to do it. Many skippers have a hard time understanding that gybing is actually the fastest way to reach your destination but the polars hold the answer. An A-kite will give you the best bang for the buck and you'll enjoy the hell out of it too! Try it you'll love it.
Wing and Wing
I go wing and wing with the main with the vang to the rail, the jib poled out to windward. Keep the windex on the tab (ours is about 30 degrees). That works out to be the fastest for us on my friends Hunter 25.5 when we are racing down wind in the B fleet.
You can work out how "hot" it pays to sail from dead down wind by knowing your angle to the wind and how far you are sailing. Lets say you are sailing a 2 mile leg dead down wind to the next mark. If you sail 30 degrees higher than ddw for 1 mile then gybe back, you are sailing an extra distance. Cosine of 30 degrees=1 mile/X. x=1/.866=1.15. That means for every mile you need to make ddw, you are sailing 1.15 miles or 15 % more. Is your boat speed 30 degrees above ddw 15% faster? You can graph this out at different wind speeds. The higher the wind, the closer to ddw you will likely be able to sail.
Play the puffs and the wind shifts, in a puff when you get moving, head down and make the distance. As the wind drops, head up to heat it up!
I go wing and wing with the main with the vang to the rail, the jib poled out to windward. Keep the windex on the tab (ours is about 30 degrees). That works out to be the fastest for us on my friends Hunter 25.5 when we are racing down wind in the B fleet.
You can work out how "hot" it pays to sail from dead down wind by knowing your angle to the wind and how far you are sailing. Lets say you are sailing a 2 mile leg dead down wind to the next mark. If you sail 30 degrees higher than ddw for 1 mile then gybe back, you are sailing an extra distance. Cosine of 30 degrees=1 mile/X. x=1/.866=1.15. That means for every mile you need to make ddw, you are sailing 1.15 miles or 15 % more. Is your boat speed 30 degrees above ddw 15% faster? You can graph this out at different wind speeds. The higher the wind, the closer to ddw you will likely be able to sail.
Play the puffs and the wind shifts, in a puff when you get moving, head down and make the distance. As the wind drops, head up to heat it up!
Heh - I see the answer to "what's the fastest way downwind with a 110 jib" is "buy a chute"
I think with the swept-back spreaders there would be a problem setting a whisker-pole. You'd have to experiment... As for wing/wing vs broad-reaching - it does depend. One issue is how deep can you do reaching before the main blankets the jib? On my Cat 36 it was about 150 degrees (ie about 30 deg from DDW). And with a smaller jib, I'm not sure the increase in speed would offset the further distance for that much angle. I can get a little deeper with the Crown, and seem to be able to get the apparent wind to go forward a bit better, allowing me maybe 160 degrees.
So it really depends on how deep you can go and how much extra speed you can get reaching. In winds over hull-speed (say 10 knots or so), wing/wing would definitely be the way to go with that small jib. Lighter air...depends.
druid
I think with the swept-back spreaders there would be a problem setting a whisker-pole. You'd have to experiment... As for wing/wing vs broad-reaching - it does depend. One issue is how deep can you do reaching before the main blankets the jib? On my Cat 36 it was about 150 degrees (ie about 30 deg from DDW). And with a smaller jib, I'm not sure the increase in speed would offset the further distance for that much angle. I can get a little deeper with the Crown, and seem to be able to get the apparent wind to go forward a bit better, allowing me maybe 160 degrees.
So it really depends on how deep you can go and how much extra speed you can get reaching. In winds over hull-speed (say 10 knots or so), wing/wing would definitely be the way to go with that small jib. Lighter air...depends.
druid
Downwind options
Thanks for the responses on how you do it or might do it with my rig. I see lots of options and experimenting under different condition in our future.
Thanks for the responses on how you do it or might do it with my rig. I see lots of options and experimenting under different condition in our future.
This is one of the drawbacks to the Hunter rig. Like everything else on a boat, one advantage reveals a disadvantage.
Maybe spreader patcher would help. I disagree with the downside mentioned of wing and wing. If you don't have a spinnaker it is a great tack especially in heavy air. It takes practice and concentration, but, in heavy air, is a great way to put miles under the keel with a comfortable ride.
Maybe spreader patcher would help. I disagree with the downside mentioned of wing and wing. If you don't have a spinnaker it is a great tack especially in heavy air. It takes practice and concentration, but, in heavy air, is a great way to put miles under the keel with a comfortable ride.
Just curious, why do you think there would be a problem with setting a whisker pole, just because the boat has aft-swept spreaders???
Heh - I see the answer to "what's the fastest way downwind with a 110 jib" is "buy a chute"
I think with the swept-back spreaders there would be a problem setting a whisker-pole. You'd have to experiment... As for wing/wing vs broad-reaching - it does depend. One issue is how deep can you do reaching before the main blankets the jib? On my Cat 36 it was about 150 degrees (ie about 30 deg from DDW). And with a smaller jib, I'm not sure the increase in speed would offset the further distance for that much angle. I can get a little deeper with the Crown, and seem to be able to get the apparent wind to go forward a bit better, allowing me maybe 160 degrees.
So it really depends on how deep you can go and how much extra speed you can get reaching. In winds over hull-speed (say 10 knots or so), wing/wing would definitely be the way to go with that small jib. Lighter air...depends.
druid
Ahhh, ya caught me! I read that after I posted it, and said "wait a minute: swept-back spreaders would be an ADVANTAGE for a whisker-pole!" So you're right: I'm wrong. The swept-back spreaders allow the whiskerpole to go straight out abeam of the mast (or even a bit aft).
druid
Perhaps this post on Polars would help.
Multihulls almost always jibe downwind, generally at about 150-135 true, deeper with a chute than without. The swept back spreaders will tend to keep you higher, but use it as an advantage; trim for that higher angle, and plan for it when choosing course.
http://images.google.com/imgres?img...hannel=s&tbs=isch:1&ei=uzSAS8TwGNKUtgfn6r3yBA
Multihulls almost always jibe downwind, generally at about 150-135 true, deeper with a chute than without. The swept back spreaders will tend to keep you higher, but use it as an advantage; trim for that higher angle, and plan for it when choosing course.
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