outhaul -O'day 240

[rmilavsky]

Any suggestions I can get on this topic will be appreciated. I am really trying to work at improving the sail trim on my 240 while also trying to read and understand better the entire concept of sail trim. Wind gusts are very problematical on this boat and I am trying to improve the boat and my skills.

My question is this: my outhaul is internal. The line from the clew runs internally through the boom and out the front. When I try to tighten the outhaul, I get very little response. The line pulls a little, and then there is a level type device that you adjust, and that is it. The clew just doesn't seem to really move to any significant degree. When i pull on the back of the clew after I have tightened my outhaul, the clew and the foot still have plenty of room to move....I just can't seem to flatten the bottom of the main.

Is this common on Odays? Is it better to scrap this internal system and think about installing an external track on the boom? Am I missing something here when I see that there is so much play on the clew when I manually pull on the clew, the foot and the back of the main?

 

[Joe11688]

Any suggestions I can get on this topic will be appreciated. I am really trying to work at improving the sail trim on my 240 while also trying to read and understand better the entire concept of sail trim. Wind gusts are very problematical on this boat and I am trying to improve the boat and my skills.

My question is this: my out haul is internal. The line from the clew runs internally through the boom and out the front. When I try to tighten the out haul, I get very little response. The line pulls a little, and then there is a level type device that you adjust, and that is it. The clew just doesn't seem to really move to any significant degree. When i pull on the back of the clew after I have tightened my out haul, the clew and the foot still have plenty of room to move....I just can't seem to flatten the bottom of the main.

Is this common on Odays? Is it better to scrap this internal system and think about installing an external track on the boom? Am I missing something here when I see that there is so much play on the clew when I manually pull on the clew, the foot and the back of the main?

Make sure that you're using the right internal line for your out haul. One of those lines has a sheave on the inside of the boom that is designed for the reefing line control. It is designed to tension the reefed sail without using a ram's head at the goose neck. If you have three lines in your boom as I have on my O'Day 222, one line is a topping lift control, one is the clew out haul which is always the middle line, and the other is your reefing line. My goose neck on the mast has a horn or rams head on it which is where I hook the reefing grommet on the luff of my sail and my reefing line comes out the back of my boom via a small sheave, up to a grommet on the leach of the sail and back down to a bail under the boom. Your reefing system is different than mine. You may be using the wrong line for your clew out haul. Try using that line in the middle.
Joe

 

[rmilavsky]

Joe,
Thanks for helping. I am attaching 3 pictures to try to show you what I have.

The first is the back of my boom.

The line on the left of pic #1 is my reefing line. This line goes up through the reefing clew on the sail and comes back down and ties to a bail. I think this is what you described. It is a single line and then this same line runs internally through the boom and comes out the front left line. The line then comes out the boom and I have a reefing grommet sewn into the sail. The line runs through this grommet and then down through a couple of blocks and then comes back to the cockpit. Please see picture #2. This is the grommet that is sewn into the sail. This same line runs through this grommet and down to two blocks and then back to the cockpit through my clutch cleat. When I pull on this single line, then main is now reefed and holds down pretty tight. There is no horn to attach the reefed tack too.

The line on the right of pic #1 is my topping lift.

I thought the line in the middle of pic #1 was my outhaul. I think you can see the shackle in this pic which attaches to the clew. On pic #2 you see where the line comes out the front of the boom. There is a small lever that you press down to tighten. I thought this was the outhaul. Perhaps I am wrong.

I can send some more pics. Perhaps I have this whole system confused.
Thanks
Ray

 

[rmilavsky]

Joe,
Here is one more picture. It is the front of the boom where this middle line comes out. Please note the lever that presses down and then the line is tight.
Ray

 

[RichBone]

There should be a block and tackle system inside. Pull on both ends and check. You'll probably need to take off the ends of the boom and inspect the setup.

Rich

 

[Joe11688]

Joe,
Here is one more picture. It is the front of the boom where this middle line comes out. Please note the lever that presses down and then the line is tight.
Ray

I agree Ray. I'm pretty sure that the middle line is the clew out haul. My boom has three small cam cleats near the goose neck that snub the control lines. What I did was attach a small bungee cord in such a way that it holds the cams to the lines in the same fashion as cam springs. I suppose that the boom extrusions at both ends of your boom are riveted on. That makes it hard to see what's going on inside your boom. You could always drill out the rivets on one end of your boom to get it off. Later, you could rivet it back on. I don't know if you'd feel comfortable doing that. You could also tap it for machine screws and use a thread locking cement to lock the screws in place. My boom is very similar to yours with the exception of the reefing line set up. I prefer doing all my sail handling right at the mast, at least on my 222, whether it be raising or lowering the sail, or reefing or shaking it out. Everything is right as the goose neck. It's all in what you're used to, I guess.
Joe

 

[Joe11688]

There should be a block and tackle system inside. Pull on both ends and check. You'll probably need to take off the ends of the boom and inspect the setup.

Rich

Ahoy there, Rich!
Not to change the subject, but I just came up with a super brain child for attaching temporary stabilizer stays (baby stays) to a mast. I sent the idea to Ed K with pics and he's going to check it out. It's easy and cheap to make, and very fast to install on any mast. For guys like yourself who own O'Day 25s and 26s, it's an extra support system for your mast in the mast raising/lowering procedure. You only need to learn how to tie the hitch to your mast with a rope, which is ultra simple. I'll keep you posted.
Joe

 

[Pat]

Any suggestions I can get on this topic will be appreciated. I am really trying to work at improving the sail trim on my 240 while also trying to read and understand better the entire concept of sail trim. Wind gusts are very problematical on this boat and I am trying to improve the boat and my skills.

My question is this: my outhaul is internal. The line from the clew runs internally through the boom and out the front. When I try to tighten the outhaul, I get very little response. The line pulls a little, and then there is a level type device that you adjust, and that is it. The clew just doesn't seem to really move to any significant degree. When i pull on the back of the clew after I have tightened my outhaul, the clew and the foot still have plenty of room to move....I just can't seem to flatten the bottom of the main.

Is this common on Odays? Is it better to scrap this internal system and think about installing an external track on the boom? Am I missing something here when I see that there is so much play on the clew when I manually pull on the clew, the foot and the back of the main?

The outhaul is useless...the block/pully at the aft end of the boom is too
small...I really like the reefing system, but the outhaul is worthless...
take it outside the boom and use bigger blocks so you pull is really transferred to the sail, not wasted trying to turn the little block....I wish I had done that on our 272 many years ago... do they still make harken magic blocks?....one of the those on the outside of the boom would be superb...Pat

 

[Joe11688]

The outhaul is useless...the block/pully at the aft end of the boom is too
small...I really like the reefing system, but the outhaul is worthless...
take it outside the boom and use bigger blocks so you pull is really transferred to the sail, not wasted trying to turn the little block....I wish I had done that on our 272 many years ago... do they still make harken magic blocks?....one of the those on the outside of the boom would be superb...Pat

Pat,
You bring up a good point. Looking at the picture of Ray's out haul line around that sheave, the line looks like 1/2". My question is, would the out haul work better with 5/16" braid line? Another question: Do you guys have sail slides on the foot of your Mainsails, or are you sliding the bolt rope into the boom track? Makes a big difference. I personally like sail slides on the foot of the Mainsail myself. The reef looks neater tied in between the top of the boom and the foot of the sail, and the out haul works a lot smoother. You may want to consider these two valid points before you mount a cheek block on the side of your boom and whatever hardware is needed. I have the same set up on my 222 for the out haul and it works great. Before I put the sail cover on my sail, I always let the out haul off. I know that a lot of guys do not do this, but I believe in relaxing the sail, even if it's for a few hours. So consequently I'd want my out haul to work properly and if it didn't, I'd try to figure out a way to make the existing system work if at all possible.

 

[emergpa1]

Ahoy there, Rich!
Not to change the subject, but I just came up with a super brain child for attaching temporary stabilizer stays (baby stays) to a mast. I sent the idea to Ed K with pics and he's going to check it out. It's easy and cheap to make, and very fast to install on any mast. For guys like yourself who own O'Day 25s and 26s, it's an extra support system for your mast in the mast raising/lowering procedure. You only need to learn how to tie the hitch to your mast with a rope, which is ultra simple. I'll keep you posted.
Joe

That sounds excellent. I am stressing about putting my mast up this spring and i am keeping an eye on all the post about launching and sailing. Heck, I do not even no how to reef my mainsail.
keith

 

[Joe11688]

That sounds excellent. I am stressing about putting my mast up this spring and i am keeping an eye on all the post about launching and sailing. Heck, I do not even no how to reef my mainsail.
keith

Keith,
Ed K. told me that his O'Day 26 doesn't have triangular plates attached to his stays. Does your 26 have these plates? The triangular plates should be in line with the pivot point of your mast Tabernacle when they are stretched out and up. You may or may not have a boom bridle that connects to a hole in each of these plates. This bridle keeps your boom centered on the mast when using it for a Gin Pole in the mast raising/lowering process. That bridle alone, provides your mast with a limited amount of lateral stability as it goes up or down because of the slackness of your stays. With my mast anchoring set up, you will get the same optimum stability as the MacGregor boat set up in their use of a tang bolted through the mast with baby stays attached to both sides of the deck. Two ropes are used in my mast anchor set up. You would need to make another bridle (baby stays) to connect between the triangular plates and the mast anchor hitch. You also would need to learn to tie the hitch which is ultra simple to tie. I've looked on a lot of knot sites and I can't find this hitch. It's called a rolling hitch, but the rolling hitch that I've been tying for over 35 years now, is a lot different than the one described on these knot sites, yet most power company linemen use this hitch every day on the job. The Ashley Book of Knots may have it, I'm not sure, but I can teach it to anyone who is interested in using it. It can be tied to anything smooth and it won't slip. You can grab the knot and move it up or down, toward or away from you, but once the tension is put on the standing part of the rope, it tightens up. I'm not saying that you can't use this without triangular plates on your stays. One of the guys in my club raises his mast on his OD 25 and he hooks his boom bridles to the tops of his stay turnbuckles on both sides of his boat, but he tells me that he needs to help the mast up while someone else mans the main sheet to raise it. As you may know, I made up pivot bridles for my boat and installed a couple of pad eyes on my deck and I'm able to raise/lower my mast with the roller furler attached, by myself. So far, I've tried two different mast anchoring systems and I didn't like either of them. The last one I tried was an idea that I took out of last year's Small Craft Advisor which involves sliding a quick link into the mast track and the main halyard to tension it up with the baby stays connected to it. It worked, but it's too much work and too time consuming. I know that this set up is going to work. It's easy and cheap to construct, and it's faster to set up.
Joe

 

[Pat]

Pat,
You bring up a good point. Looking at the picture of Ray's out haul line around that sheave, the line looks like 1/2". My question is, would the out haul work better with 5/16" braid line? Another question: Do you guys have sail slides on the foot of your Mainsails, or are you sliding the bolt rope into the boom track? Makes a big difference. I personally like sail slides on the foot of the Mainsail myself. The reef looks neater tied in between the top of the boom and the foot of the sail, and the out haul works a lot smoother. You may want to consider these two valid points before you mount a cheek block on the side of your boom and whatever hardware is needed. I have the same set up on my 222 for the out haul and it works great. Before I put the sail cover on my sail, I always let the out haul off. I know that a lot of guys do not do this, but I believe in relaxing the sail, even if it's for a few hours. So consequently I'd want my out haul to work properly and if it didn't, I'd try to figure out a way to make the existing system work if at all possible.

Sheave....I could not think of the work sheave....suffering brain cell death.

yes, the line is def. too big of diameter..and no, my 272 sail is bolt rope, not slides...that too would make a huge difference...Pat

 

[Joe11688]

Sheave....I could not think of the work sheave....suffering brain cell death.

yes, the line is def. too big of diameter..and no, my 272 sail is bolt rope, not slides...that too would make a huge difference...Pat

Pat,
I get those brain malfunctions quite a bit. Some guys call them "Brain F#%&s". With me, being a "Geezer, it kind of goes with the territory so I'm told.
I replaced all my control lines in my boom a couple of years ago. I just tied a strong piece of twine on each end of the lines and pulled them out using the tag lines to pull my new lines in. All my lines and halyards are whipped and I use a sail palm with a heavy carpet needle to attach a twine to the halyard by running the needle through the center of the whipping with the twine attached to it. While you have that line out of the boom, it will be easier to check and see if the sheave at the end of the boom is turning free. Ray should probably give this a try too. Good Luck!
Joe

 

[emergpa1]

Keith,
Ed K. told me that his O'Day 26 doesn't have triangular plates attached to his stays. Does your 26 have these plates? The triangular plates should be in line with the pivot point of your mast Tabernacle when they are stretched out and up. You may or may not have a boom bridle that connects to a hole in each of these plates. This bridle keeps your boom centered on the mast when using it for a Gin Pole in the mast raising/lowering process. That bridle alone, provides your mast with a limited amount of lateral stability as it goes up or down because of the slackness of your stays. With my mast anchoring set up, you will get the same optimum stability as the MacGregor boat set up in their use of a tang bolted through the mast with baby stays attached to both sides of the deck. Two ropes are used in my mast anchor set up. You would need to make another bridle (baby stays) to connect between the triangular plates and the mast anchor hitch. You also would need to learn to tie the hitch which is ultra simple to tie. I've looked on a lot of knot sites and I can't find this hitch. It's called a rolling hitch, but the rolling hitch that I've been tying for over 35 years now, is a lot different than the one described on these knot sites, yet most power company linemen use this hitch every day on the job. The Ashley Book of Knots may have it, I'm not sure, but I can teach it to anyone who is interested in using it. It can be tied to anything smooth and it won't slip. You can grab the knot and move it up or down, toward or away from you, but once the tension is put on the standing part of the rope, it tightens up. I'm not saying that you can't use this without triangular plates on your stays. One of the guys in my club raises his mast on his OD 25 and he hooks his boom bridles to the tops of his stay turnbuckles on both sides of his boat, but he tells me that he needs to help the mast up while someone else mans the main sheet to raise it. As you may know, I made up pivot bridles for my boat and installed a couple of pad eyes on my deck and I'm able to raise/lower my mast with the roller furler attached, by myself. So far, I've tried two different mast anchoring systems and I didn't like either of them. The last one I tried was an idea that I took out of last year's Small Craft Advisor which involves sliding a quick link into the mast track and the main halyard to tension it up with the baby stays connected to it. It worked, but it's too much work and too time consuming. I know that this set up is going to work. It's easy and cheap to construct, and it's faster to set up.
Joe

Im not sure about the triangular plate on the stays. I looked at your photo album but couldn't make out what you meant by the triangular plate
thanks
keith

 

[emergpa1]

I am often reading the descriptions and explainations with another browser window open to either one of your photos, or to a informative site such as small boat rigging or wikkipedia, etc. i.e. http://www.glen-l.com/free-book/rigging-small-sailboats-3.html. Still I stay pretty confused.
keith

 

[emergpa1]

joe, also, i can't find an explaination as to what the mast anchor is.
thanks again,
keith

 

[Joe11688]

joe, also, i can't find an explaination as to what the mast anchor is.
thanks again,
keith

Hi Keith,
Sorry to mess up your mind with a term like "mast anchor", but I couldn't think of any other way to describe it. Check out this site compliments of Dale Mack, and the last picture describes a mast attachment for the baby stays and pivot bridles. http://slowflight.net/upgrades/tips-GinPole.html This is what I was using last year. The MacGregor people have used a mast bail on some of their boats to attach temporary stablizer stays. They have also used a tang on each side of the mast with a single bolt holding it for these stays. This is what I mean when I say "Mast Anchor". Maybe someone else can chime in about the triangular plates. Your boat may not have them.
Joe
Joe

 

[rmilavsky]

Pat,
I have come to the rough conclusion that you are dead on right. It sounds like you have dealt with the same frustration. i am going to send Joe a separate reply as Joe has some very good insight.
I just get no real meaningful tension of this outhaul system. My Oday is a 240. I don't know what is realistic to expect in terms of sail trim and trying to flatten the lower 1/3 of the sail. All I know now is that my Oday does not perform great when the wind really starts to kick up. It is a struggle.
Joe discussed about the size of the line. I defer collectively to your advanced knowledge. I am not sure that the size of the line would make a difference....but it is probably easier installing an external outhaul with sufficient pull to get the clew to pull back and flatten.
Thanks again.
Ray

 

[rmilavsky]

Joe,
This might be the easiest last ditch effort.
You asked about the line. I do think it is 1/2". Do you really think the 5/16 would work that much better?
And, My bolt rope slides into a grove. I pull the foot all the way back through the groove, feeding the sail into the groove. When the sail gets to the back shackle, I attach the shackle to the clew. And with that, my outhaul is set up ...for better or worse.
I am not comfortable at all taking off the end of the aft boom. I think I know my limitations, and before I do that, it might be just better to scratch this system and install an external outhaul.
But, i am toyiing with the idea of replacing all of the internal lines, along the method you suggested. I am not sure what a sail palm is...sorry for the stupid question. I have replace other lines including my halyard...and I am game for giving this a try....but if I do, are you saying I should replace with 5/16 line instead?
Ray

 

[Joe11688]

Joe,
This might be the easiest last ditch effort.
You asked about the line. I do think it is 1/2". Do you really think the 5/16 would work that much better?
And, My bolt rope slides into a grove. I pull the foot all the way back through the groove, feeding the sail into the groove. When the sail gets to the back shackle, I attach the shackle to the clew. And with that, my outhaul is set up ...for better or worse.
I am not comfortable at all taking off the end of the aft boom. I think I know my limitations, and before I do that, it might be just better to scratch this system and install an external outhaul.
But, i am toyiing with the idea of replacing all of the internal lines, along the method you suggested. I am not sure what a sail palm is...sorry for the stupid question. I have replace other lines including my halyard...and I am game for giving this a try....but if I do, are you saying I should replace with 5/16 line instead?
Ray

Ray,
I personally think that a 5/16" out haul line would work OK on an O'Day 240 boom. As for the sail foot bolt rope in the groove of the boom; you could try using a mast track lubricant first. They have a spray type lubricant that is made specifically for the mast track. I think that it would be well worth your while to give Rudy Nickerson of D & R Marine a call and ask him about this. http://www.drmarine.com/
Rudy is far more knowledgeable about the O'Day 240s than I am. He worked for O'Day years back and when the Fall River Ma O'Day factory folded up, Rudy bought all their sailboat gear, plus all the boat molds and went in business for himself. He contracted a boat builder in Bristol RI and had this guy build some O'Day 192s, 240s, and Widgeons back in the mid 1990s. He carries all the O'Day parts and he's a great guy to talk to.
The "Sailor's Palm" is made of leather and it is designed to fit over the palm of your right hand. It has a hole where you insert your thumb and there's a piece of steel with some shallow holes on the face of the metal attached to the leather palm. The steel on the palm is for pushing the sail needle through sail cloth or leather. You could probably accomplish the same task with a pair of needle nose pliers for this job. The Sailor's Palm is very pricey. I bought mine about twenty years ago when they were cheap.
As for the extrusion at the end of the boom; I wouldn't take it off unless I really had too. Good luck with that Ray.
Joe