Change in prop pitch

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BobM

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Jun 10, 2004
3,269
S2 9.2A Winthrop, MA
Will going from a 16RH9 to a 16RH12 pitch be a significant change? The later is a folding Martec and the former the original fixed Michigan wheel. Both are two blade. Engine is a 14hp 2QM15. Current combo maxes at 5.5 knots at a cruising rmp of 2800 and max rpm of 3200, which is perfect per the specs for the engine (no cooling issues). Martec recommended a 16RH10, so I will hopefully not be that far off. Worst case I will send it in to be reconditioned and repitched.
 
Dec 2, 1999
15,184
Hunter Vision-36 Rio Vista, CA.
Bob: I do not think you can compare different prop types. If you lay the Martec over the Michigan prop, there will probably be significant differences in the surface area. I would guess that the Martec needs more pitch to make up for the reduced surface area.

Why did you decide to go with the Martec?
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Blade area ratios are part of the equation. The change you propose is a lot and I echo the question why make the change?
 

BobM

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Jun 10, 2004
3,269
S2 9.2A Winthrop, MA
I thought I'd see if I can gain some performance under sail in light air with the folding prop.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Figure the blade area and make a parachute drogue that size. Then when you are sailing nice and steady check your spped with the gps and drop the drogue over the side and tow it. your change in speed from towing the drogue with be about the gain you will get with a folding prop. Only gonna cost you about five bucks.
 
Dec 2, 1999
15,184
Hunter Vision-36 Rio Vista, CA.
Bob: I would check with some fellow sailors that use one of these Martecs before you jump on this. While you are probably going to gain some sailing speed, you may not like the other properties of this prop. If you do any significant motoring, you are probably not going to like it. Backing and stopping abilities are NOT enhanced.

I suggest you take a look at the Campbell Sailor prop, they make all the difference in sailing and motoring ability. The only major drawback from what I have heard is the ability to stop. You just need to give it more throttle to overcome that issue.
 
Dec 2, 1999
15,184
Hunter Vision-36 Rio Vista, CA.
Bob: Have you had a prop shop size one of these Martec's for your engine? I would consider that my first thing to check. Most of these good prop shops can tell you what to expect and they can tell you exactly what diameter/pitch you will need with a specific prop.
 
Sep 25, 2008
2,288
C30 Event Horizon Port Aransas
I have been messing around with different prop pitches. I bought 3 different pitches on ebay. 12lh10, 12lh11,12lh12. They were all 3 blade michigan. There was a drastic difference between the 10 and 11. I have a 10 on it now. It cuts through chop pretty much at 5 knots. The 11 would bog the engine and I would be doing 2 knots. I have had the 11 up to 6.3 knots on calm water though when the boat was just painted and the prop new and perfectly clean.
With 3 inches differnece I think you will see a drastic difference that you won't be happy with.
 

BobM

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Jun 10, 2004
3,269
S2 9.2A Winthrop, MA
Thanks Hermit

I have been messing around with different prop pitches. I bought 3 different pitches on ebay. 12lh10, 12lh11,12lh12. They were all 3 blade michigan. There was a drastic difference between the 10 and 11. I have a 10 on it now. It cuts through chop pretty much at 5 knots. The 11 would bog the engine and I would be doing 2 knots. I have had the 11 up to 6.3 knots on calm water though when the boat was just painted and the prop new and perfectly clean.
With 3 inches differnece I think you will see a drastic difference that you won't be happy with.
That is a good data set. Perhaps I'll just send it down to Martec to be re-pitched and reconditioned from the get go.

I looked into props for a while and I understand the limitations of the Martec folding prop. I am not planning on extensive cruising short term, so better light air performance is more important. Reversing also isn't very important, as I am on a mooring and typically just reverse to brake. I understand it will be different, but many people have them and get by so I imagine that won't be traumatic. My biggest concern is the impact on the engine and forward performance. If the prop results in a much lower RPM at wide open throttle that isn't a good thing for sure. We'll see.
 

BobM

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Jun 10, 2004
3,269
S2 9.2A Winthrop, MA
I emailed Martec

Bob: Have you had a prop shop size one of these Martec's for your engine? I would consider that my first thing to check. Most of these good prop shops can tell you what to expect and they can tell you exactly what diameter/pitch you will need with a specific prop.
Martec said 16RH10.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,760
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Bob..

My Martec two blade folder needed factory refurbishment twice in less than three seasons. They SLAM open and perform very poorly in reverse. It also had severe vibrations that Martec was never able to fix, even with refurbishment, to fix the bent pin and the slop.

I replaced it with a three blade wheel and the vibrations were totally gone, so I know it was the prop, because that was the only change.

If you are considering a folder I would give serious consideration to the geared models like the Flex-O-Fold as opposed to the non geared models.

If you are not racing it's a big expense to gain that extra .1-.2 knots..;)
 

Rick D

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Jun 14, 2008
7,204
Hunter Legend 40.5 Shoreline Marina Long Beach CA
Re: Bob..

Lots of twenty year old Martecs here in SoCal that have never had a service. However, I also know of two that lost a blade after long service. I have a two-blade geared Slipstream folder (distributed by Martec on the west coast) and believe the difference in light air and pointing ability is significant in my case. I wouldn't drag a fixed prop ever again. Reverse is fine once you get the technique and forward is within .2 knots and would probably be better if it wasn't slightly over pitched. I have replaced the reverse stops once in six seasons.
 
Oct 25, 2005
735
Catalina 30 Banderas Bay, Mexico
My Martec two blade folder needed factory refurbishment twice in less than three seasons. They SLAM open and perform very poorly in reverse. It also had severe vibrations that Martec was never able to fix, even with refurbishment, to fix the bent pin and the slop.

I replaced it with a three blade wheel and the vibrations were totally gone, so I know it was the prop, because that was the only change.

If you are considering a folder I would give serious consideration to the geared models like the Flex-O-Fold as opposed to the non geared models.

If you are not racing it's a big expense to gain that extra .1-.2 knots..;)
My experience is not the same. I've never had the prop "slam" open. I cannot tell the difference between the Martec, Michigan Wheel, and Campbell Sailer when shifting into gear at idle.

The Martec and Michigan Wheel are both two bladed props and both have the same (too high) pitch, the Michigan Wheel motors slightly better than the Martec but not much, the Campbell Sailer is the best prop for motoring.

In reverse there is not much difference in the props, but the Martec seems to have less propwalk ... that is my only complaint ... I like having a decent amount of propwalk ... I had to relearn some skills.

Sailing in light air there is NO comparison. In light air the fixed blade props are speed killers. That .2 knot is 5% of upwind boat speed and a measurable loss in pointing ability on my boat. The folding prop means that I now sail when I used to motor upwind in light air. The 6 - 9 sec/mile credit in rating is not nearly enough to make up the difference in performance. That does not sound like much, but it is about 60-80 boat lengths in 15 miles. To give yourself some idea of what better motoring performance costs in sailing ability, compare sailing upwind at 3.8 knots and 48 degrees off the wind to sailing 4.0 knots at 45. It is huge, you lose more than a mile every 5 hours.

In SF I had the Michigan Wheel and did not notice the poor sailing performance so much in the 12-20 knots of wind. When I moved to Vancouver, I had to deal with huge currents and low average wind speeds, so the Campbell Sailer was a good choice. Now I'm in a variable wind, low current area and the boat is a positive joy to sail with the folding prop. I'll NEVER have a fixed prop on a sailboat again. I just wish that I could get the Martec at a lower pitch to get the same RPM I had with the Campbell Sailer ...

The Boat is a Catalina 30 with an Atomic 4. The props are limited in diameter by both the silly 1:1 drive ratio and the short strut. The boat does not motor well to begin with. :(

Other boats with decent sized props and reduction gears can make use of higher pitch, I am certain that they react to prop changes differently than the C30. A slightly larger diameter prop and higher pitch at lower RPM would be a more more efficient set-up. This also goes to the locked vs freewheeling debate where a freewheeling higher pitch prop does not hurt sailing performance as much as a lower pitched prop does.

I'd go with the Martec recommendation, I would not add 3 inches of pitch. If the 16D9P gives full RPM the prop is correct. 16D12P will overload the engine.

If the prop you are looking at is used, find out just how much pitch can be taken out before you buy it.

All two bladed props vibrate more than three bladed so if the vibration from your current two bladed prop does not bother you, you will not notice a difference with the folder ... unless there is something wrong with it.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,760
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
My experience is not the same. I've never had the prop "slam" open. I cannot tell the difference between the Martec, Michigan Wheel, and Campbell Sailer when shifting into gear at idle.
And this is why it was sent back to Martec, twice. They even told me it should not slam open, I had friends with them and theirs did not seem to, but mine was, even after having it reconditioned.

I was bending the pin in one season then it would apparently not always open evenly and I guesstimate that is what would cause my vibrations. These were not normal two blade prop vibrations these were horrendous cyclical vibrations transmitted throughout the boat..

I was very frustrated that after spending hundreds extra in services, that never should have been necessary at that age, and then getting it back from Martec no better, I went elsewhere..

I know many people are happy, and perhaps my situation was unique, but after two repirs and they still can't make it right.....:cussing:
 
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